Water Report -- Humber Park to Laws Loop + Caramba

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Water Report -- Humber Park to Laws Loop + Caramba

Postby Hikin_Jim » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:33 am

So, I took a little hike on Saturday from Humber Park to Saddle Junction. From Saddle Junction, I did a loop from the saddle to Laws and return. For the outbound leg, I took the northern route, reaching Laws Junction via Willow Creek Crossing. On the return, I took the southern route, returning to the saddle via the trail through Tahquitz Valley. While at Laws, I took the side trip down to Caramba. Eventually, I hope to post some photos and more of a trip report, but for now, I post a water report (below). Overall, the water situation is pretty good.

Water Report -- Humber Park to Laws Loop + Caramba
Humber Park to Saddle Junction
-Jolley Spring - Dry.
-Middle Spring - Flowing, not a lot of flow but filterable.
-Powderbox Spring - Not really flowing, but a couple of filterable pools below the trail. Use if desperate. :)
Saddle Junction to Willow Creek Crossing
-Drainage just east of saddle junction - Dry.
-Drainage just west of junction with trail to Tahquitz Meadow - Low flow.
-Drainage midway between junction with trail to Tahquitz Meadow and Willow Creek Crossing - Dry.
-Willow Creek Crossing - Willow Creek is flowing well.
Willow Creek Crossing to Laws Jct
-Intermittent stream just west of junction with trail to Laws Jct - Low flow up stream of trail, several filterable pools.
-Willow Creek at trail crossing N of Laws Jct - flowing well
Laws Jct to Caramba
-Willow Creek at bridge just S of Laws Jct - flowing well
-First intermittent stream en route to Caramba - Not flowing but filterable pools.
-Second intermittent stream - Dry.
-Third intermittent stream - Dry.
-Tahquitz Creek at Caramba - Excellent flow. Pools at falls quite full. Water at falls only in channel (not spreading out onto surrounding rock as in spring).
Laws Jct to Saddle Jct
-Intermittent stream W of Laws Jct. Flowing, not a lot of volume, but filterable.
-Candy's Creek - Not flowing across trail, but nice pool(s) on uphill side of trail and flowing above trail. Water observable flowing below trail.
-Spring coming from pipe S of four way junction - flowing well.
-Add'l note: Tahquitz Creek could be heard flowing at several points along trail from Laws jct en route to the four way junction.
Last edited by Hikin_Jim on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Water Report -- Humber Park to Laws Loop + Caramba

Postby FIGHT ON » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:43 pm

Hikin_Jim wrote:So, I took a little hike on Saturday from Humber Park to Saddle Junction. From Saddle Junction, I did a loop from the saddle to Laws and return. For the outbound leg, I took the northern route, reaching Laws Junction via Willow Creek Crossing. On the return, I took the southern route, returning to the saddle via the trail through Tahquitz Valley. While at Laws, I took the side trip down to Caramba. Eventually, I hope to post some photos and more of a trip report, but for now, I post a water report (below). Overall, the water situation is pretty good.

Water Report -- Humber Park to Laws Loop + Caramba
Humber Park to Saddle Junction
-Jolley Spring - Dry.
-Middle Spring - Flowing, not a lot of flow but filterable.
-Powderbox Spring - Not really flowing, but a couple of filterable pools below the trail. Use if desperate. :)
Saddle Junction to Willow Creek Crossing
-Drainage just east of saddle junction - Dry.
-Drainage just west of junction with trail to Tahquitz Meadow - Low flow.
-Drainage midway between junction with trail to Tahquitz Meadow and Willow Creek Crossing - Dry.
-Willow Creek Crossing - Willow Creek is flowing well.
Willow Creek Crossing to Laws Jct
-Intermittent stream just west of junction with trail to Laws Jct - Low flow up stream of trail, several filterable pools.
-Willow Creek at trail crossing N of Laws Jct - flowing well
Laws Jct to Caramba
-Willow Creek at bridge just S of Laws Jct - flowing well
-First intermittent stream en route to Caramba - Not flowing but filterable pools.
-First intermittent stream - Dry.
-Second intermittent stream - Dry.
-Tahquitz Creek at Caramba - Excellent flow. Pools at falls quite full. Water at falls only in channel (not spreading out onto surrounding rock as in spring).
Laws Jct to Saddle Jct
-Intermittent stream E of Laws Jct. Flowing, not a lot of volume, but filterable.
-Candy's Creek - Not flowing across trail, but nice pool(s) on uphill side of trail and flowing above trail. Water observable flowing below trail.
-Spring coming from pipe S of four way junction - flowing well.
-Add'l note: Tahquitz Creek could be heard flowing at several points along trail from Laws jct en route to the four way junction.


Jim.
I know your views on drinking unfiltered water. And obviously you couldn't drink the dry locations but of the remaining which ones would you personally drink from unfiltered?
Thanks.
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Re: Water Report -- Humber Park to Laws Loop + Caramba

Postby Hikin_Jim » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:26 pm

FIGHT ON wrote:Jim.
I know your views on drinking unfiltered water. And obviously you couldn't drink the dry locations but of the remaining which ones would you personally drink from unfiltered?
Thanks.
It's a very personal decision as to which risks in the wilderness are acceptable and which are not. So, anything I say is just my thinking at this stage of things.

When I decide to filter, I'm usually trying to weigh the following:
-Usage of area (High use? Seldom visited?)
-Environs (What's in this area? What's upstream?)
-Source (Spring, pool, stream, or lake?)
-Visual (How does it look?)
-Olfactory (How does it smell?)

Having said that, the area I hiked in is all fairly high use except maybe Caramba, but Caramba has a heck of a lot of human activity upstream, so I'd probably filter every one of the sources noted in my water report. However, I'll go ahead and share some thoughts (comments in italic) on each source; perhaps they'll be helpful to you. All of my comments on the environs are based on the USGS topos for the area:

-Middle Spring - Flowing, not a lot of flow but filterable.
Right off the trail on a very high use trail. I'd probably filter even though it's a spring.
-Powderbox Spring - Not really flowing, but a couple of filterable pools below the trail.
I wouldn't drink at all except if I had no other options. These small rather questionalble looking pools are below a high use trail. The spring is above the trail. Were I to drink it, I might use both a filter as well as chemical treatment.
-Drainage just west of junction with trail to Tahquitz Meadow - Low flow.
If I were to use this one, I'd walk upstream a bit. Ordinarially, I might would not filter since there's no human activity upstream, but since it's in a high use area w/o a lot of flow, I'd filter this one.
-Willow Creek Crossing - Willow Creek is flowing well.
This one is a bit of a toss up. It has good flow, so it might bo OK to drink from straight, but there is a trail upstream. The creek doesn't exactly flow all the way back to the trail above it; the creek proceeds from a meadowy area in the vicinity of the stream. Still, it's a high use area, so I might go ahead and filter just the same.
-Intermittent stream just west of junction with trail to Laws Jct - Low flow up stream of trail, several filterable pools.
This one might be the best to drink out of straight since it flows from an area with no human activity, but the flow is low, mostly just pools. I'd filter just to be safe.-Willow Creek at trail crossing N of Laws Jct - flowing well
This is the same Willow Creek already discussed, but now there's a trail crossing fairly close upstream. I'd filter it.
-Willow Creek at bridge just S of Laws Jct - flowing well
This spot is w/in 0.25 mi of the previous crossing. Same logic applies.
-First intermittent stream en route to Caramba - Not flowing but filterable pools.
It's not flowing This one also has trail crossings at two points upstream. I'd filter it.
-Tahquitz Creek at Caramba - Excellent flow. Pools at falls quite full. Water at falls only in channel (not spreading out onto surrounding rock as in spring).
Not as heavily used of an area as the preceeding, but tons of human activity upstream. Everything from Wellman Divide to Saddle Jct to Tahquitz and Red Tahquitz drains here. Filter it.
-Intermittent stream W (note correction) of Laws Jct. Flowing, not a lot of volume, but filterable.
Trail crossing in the drainage above. High use area. Filter it.
-Candy's Creek - Not flowing across trail, but nice pool(s) on uphill side of trail and flowing above trail. Water observable flowing below trail.
Trail crossing in the drainage above. High use area. Filter it.
-Spring coming from pipe S of four way junction - flowing well.
Hmm. Tough call. It's a spring. That's good. It's recessed into the ground which means that the water isn't 100% flushed out. That's bad. It's not visible from the trail, it's not marked on the maps, and not everyone knows where it is. That's good. It's in a very high use area. That's bad. Flip a coin? I'd probably filter just because it's in a high use area and because I really don't know where that water is coming from.
-Add'l note: Tahquitz Creek could be heard flowing at several points along trail from Laws jct en route to the four way junction.
Since Tahquitz Creek drains such a wide area, I'd pretty much filter any water coming from it.
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Postby Rick M » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:57 pm

What a very detailed water report Jim. Need a job? :D
I may still have the magazine somewhere in the garage but back in the mid 70s a medical doctor and his wife went backpacking in the San Jacinto wilderness and got the intestinal whatevers (I don't recall what exactly it was). I believe the article was in Summit but might have been in Off Belay or Climbing. He was surprised at getting sick from water in the wilderness and did a study that showed something like 17 of 20 streams and springs up there had some type of contamination.

He then went on to research methods to render the water safe; boiling, drops of chlorine bleach, halazon tablets, and something I had never heard of...iodine crystals. He went on to describing how many drops of saturated iodine solution from iodine crystals was needed at a certain temperature...

I was use to carrying a Sierra Club cup on my belt and would drink freely from any steam, spring, lake or rain puddle that "looked clean". After reading his article, I made up one of these iodine things and carried a thermometer and used it as a preventative measure for ANY water source except melting snow on a stove. Years later a company came out with a product called Polar Pure that made this system convenient (included a built on thermometer). Today I carry this or a filter depending on the trip.

Over the years I've known people with me that both treat or filter and some that don't and I've never known any that treat or filter who got sick afterwards. All I can say about any water source is that if you chose not to treat/filter any source you have a chance of paying for it later...somepeople even treat/filter their home water :?
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Postby Hikin_Jim » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:15 pm

Rick M wrote:What a very detailed water report Jim. Need a job? :D
As what? A water accountant? :lol: I guess I have been accused of being a "details guy." Just the way I'm wired. :)

Rick M wrote: I may still have the magazine somewhere in the garage but back in the mid 70s a medical doctor and his wife went backpacking in the San Jacinto wilderness and got the intestinal whatevers (I don't recall what exactly it was). I believe the article was in Summit but might have been in Off Belay or Climbing. He was surprised at getting sick from water in the wilderness and did a study that showed something like 17 of 20 streams and springs up there had some type of contamination.
Interesting. I've read so much lately about how the water in N America is generally pretty clean. I'd be very curious to see a modern study of the San Jacintos. A lot of the conclusions reached in earlier studies have subsequently been proven wrong. More recent studies have generally pointed to oral-fecal transmision rather than waterborne transmission.

Rick M wrote:Years later a company came out with a product called Polar Pure that made this system convenient (included a built on thermometer). Today I carry this or a filter depending on the trip.
If one were to go with iodine, Polar Pure seems far and away to be the best bet. Iodine tablets have a very limited shelf life sealed and an even shorter shelf life after being unsealed whereas Polar Pure lasts almost indefiitely. However, iodine works great against girardia, but doesn't work worh beans on cryptosporidium. What were the contaminants found in the study you're referencing?

Rick M wrote:Over the years I've known people with me that both treat or filter and some that don't and I've never known any that treat or filter who got sick afterwards. All I can say about any water source is that if you chose not to treat/filter any source you have a chance of paying for it later...somepeople even treat/filter their home water :?
Either I've led a charmed life or the water's pretty clean hereabouts; I drink unfiltered surface water when I'm out hiking. However, as noted in my missive to FIGHT ON, I'm pretty conservative.

From what I've been reading, girardia, the culprit most commonly associated with waterborne illness, isn't all that common in N American waters. Further, girardia has been around for a long long time, and humanity has developed some resistance to it. The majority of people exposed to girardia show no symptoms. Of those who show symptoms, the majority experience only mild discomfort and recover without any medical intervention.

In other words, it's unlikely that you'll be exposed to girardia. If you are exposed to girardia, you're unlikely to contract an illness. If you do contract an illness, it's likely to be minor, and you're likely to recover on your own.

I'm not a doctor, so take what I say with a grain of salt. In the mean time, fresh, un-chemically treated water? I'll drink to that. :D
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Postby Rick M » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:33 pm

I agree with everything you say Hikin Jim. As I mentioned, I used to scoop water right out of a stream, spring, lake, and rain puddle all the time. I was also following the recent threads on water borne organisms and human fecal contamination and read way back in the seventies how most people (millions?) drink giardia infected water in some of the Russian cities without catastrophic affects. And I will have to clean out the garage and hope I can find that article although its timeliness my no longer be relevant.

I do recall a trip to the Grand Canyon and several of us not wanting to fill our canteens from Hermit Creek after seeing "used TP" that had blown in the streambed. Given the volume of water flowing and the number of viable organisms (if any) that it might have contained was enough for us to wait till we got to the river to filter/treat...more a psychological thing than anything else. Even though we knew that the policy back then (maybe still?) was to urinate in the Colorado River to avoid contaminating all the river camp areas and pack out fecies. Or like in a small igloo at our high camp on Denali when in -44 temps, we elected to use our cooking pot to urinate in :shock: (tip: make sure you bring pee bottles if going there).

All I'm really saying is that short of catching the rain or melting fresh snow, if you chose not to treat and or filter your water, that is a risk that one takes, nothing more :D
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Postby Hikin_Jim » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:28 am

Rick M wrote:All I'm really saying is that short of catching the rain or melting fresh snow, if you chose not to treat and or filter your water, that is a risk that one takes, nothing more :D
Yeah, I guess that's about the size of it. Nice thing about the San Jacintos is that there's water to filter. :D

I'm doing a BP the first weekend in October, and I'm planning on staying somewhere in the vicinity of Little Tahquitz Valley. I took my little trip, yes because I enjoy hiking and because the San Jacintos are great, but also I wanted to assess the water conditions. I'm not as enthusiastic about BP'ing when I have to pack all my water in. :D I also wanted to pin down the location of the spring near the four way junction which I had heard was there but hadn't actually been to.

On the San G board, there are a lot of postings about water but relatively few on this board, particularly lately. Not sure why that would be. Maybe because this year is actually an OK year for water?
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Postby mike joe » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:54 pm

Hey, that's an awesome water report Jim. Right on subject for me as my sisters and I will be backpacking on the weekend of the 19th. I know there is a reliable spring at Round Valley, but where is the "4 junctions" you speak of? We are taking Devil's Slide up but not sure where we are going to sleep because of the water situation. Are the names of springs and creeks you named in your report on a standard USGS topo map?

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Postby Hikin_Jim » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:07 pm

mike joe wrote:Hey, that's an awesome water report Jim. Right on subject for me as my sisters and I will be backpacking on the weekend of the 19th. I know there is a reliable spring at Round Valley, but where is the "4 junctions" you speak of?
Mike,
The four way junction is about 0.5 miles east of Saddle Junction and about 0.1 miles north of Tahquitz Meadow.

mike joe wrote: We are taking Devil's Slide up but not sure where we are going to sleep because of the water situation. Are the names of springs and creeks you named in your report on a standard USGS topo map?
All of the names and drainages are based on the standard USGS topo map except: Candy's Creek is not named on the USGS map, and the spring near the four way junction is not marked. Some of the drainages are hard to spot -- not all of them have the little blue stream line in the bottom of them -- but if you look closely, you should be able to figure it out. Just post here again if you have any questions.

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Postby mike joe » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:19 pm

Ok, cool. So it looks like "4 way junction" is an intersection of two trails? (I just got a map from REI)

As far as water treatment...boiling still works, right? I can't afford a filter right now but I do have an excess amount of fuel. I guess it would be nice to have a filter but I don't mind boiling :) We used to drink off of that spring without treatment but I'm too paranoid for that now :?
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