Clarifying the trail at the peak

[FIGHT ON]

I took my nine year old up San Jacinto today and he had not problem finding the top. I let him lead.

I also showed him how to kick over a couple of ducks on the way. He made me so proud!

The problem at the top is NOT signage or lack of duckage. On a summer day I never see fewer than ten people up top. They all seem to make it OK. The problem at the top is there are too many use trails before you get to the cabin. Once you get to the cabin it's pretty easy to see which way to go: UP! And coming down is just as easy. Although from the cabin to the .3 sign the trail could be cleaned up a bit with maintenance and eradication of improper trails.

I don't see any need for signs. If you bail off the South side, you will still hit the trail and even the dumbest tourist should be able to figure which way it is back to the Tram although a MAP and COMPASS might come in handy at this point.

Now if they bail off the NORTH side, that's a different matter.

I did run into some tourists who were going to bail off the main trial about a half a mile BEFORE they got to Wellman Divide. (Do we need signs everywhere?) The guy knew he had to make a left but wasn't sure where. I had him follow my 9 year old and we all made it out OK.

Walking right behind your son while telling him which way to go?
If you are going to use your son as some sort of an example then
give him your map and your compass and send him up solo.
Let him find his own way up, and past the cabin.
Then hope he can find his way back.
In fact before he goes you should remove all the signs for this trail since you see no need for them.

After all.
You don't see any need for signs. If he bails off the South side, he will still hit the trail and even the dumbest tourist should be able to figure which way it is back to the Tram although a MAP and COMPASS might come in handy at this point.

Now if he bails off the NORTH side, that's a different matter.

Can't wait to hear your reasons why you wouldn't do that.

[Perry]

Fight On, you realize this forum is not about fighting, right?

[halhiker]

Wouldn't let a nine year old hike alone since the little guy would be cougar bait. We talked about that and what to do if we saw a mountain lion. I know the chance is VERY remote but better to be prepared.

The little guy got minimal coaching from me. At each trail junction, I asked him where we were going--the Peak--and at the cabin I just told him, "UP".

It was a great time and guess which one of us is a bit sore today.

[asabat]

Thinking about it some more, I'm wondering if "they" leave the final few yards unmarked through the rocks because there is no "trail" and if "they" mark a "trail" it needs to be to standard specifications. Hey, I've seen state highways shut down because a guardrail was missing and someone's car could "fall" off the highway. By leaving the route through the rocks unestablished, there is no "trail" that has to conform to "their" specifications.

And, I've taken a number of people up the mountain who stopped at the hut where the trail ends, even though I was there to show the way, as they didn't want to go "off trail." They were all very happy to have enjoyed their hike to the "summit" and enjoyed the view.

[AlanK]

Wouldn't let a nine year old hike alone since the little guy would be cougar bait. We talked about that and what to do if we saw a mountain lion. I know the chance is VERY remote but better to be prepared.

The little guy got minimal coaching from me. At each trail junction, I asked him where we were going--the Peak--and at the cabin I just told him, "UP".

It was a great time and guess which one of us is a bit sore today.

Sounds great! I remember doing the same thing with my 9 year old son on San Jacinto about 9 years ago. Back then, I could let him lead. It's been a while since I had any choice in such matters. (Come to think of it, it's always been the same one of us who got sore.)

[Rick M]

Whether on the trail or on the highway, people make wrong decisions. I had a lady check into the hotel I work at who missed her turn off at Cook Street and drove all the way to BLYTHE before figuring out she had to come back 100 miles. The problem was not the signage but the driver. I'm sure she was on her cell phone; why didn't she use it to call for directions?

...There are enough navigational tools available that no one should ever get lost but they figure why bring a map when they are only in Palm Springs?

You have a valid point here halhiker. But, the lady made a wrong turn and still remained on a road in her vehicle. She wasn't expected to drive to Palm Springs and then off road 4x4 to the hotel with the consequences that a wrong turn will cause her vehicle to get stranded in sand dunes, a swamp, over a cliff or somewhere where she runs out of gas. On the trails, if a sign is missing or the person takes a wrong turn they are still on a trail and eventually will end up somewhere.

On my first climbing trip to the Tetons (pre GPS days) we knew that we had to turn right at a fork in the trail two miles in. We met up with a group on their way down who had stopped for a break and dry out wet parkas. We chatted briefly and then continued. After about 20 minutes we came to the conclusion that we had missed the turn. When we backtracked we got to the spot we had stopped to chat. Turns out they had hung their parkas on the trail sign and dropped their packs on the trail we should have taken. We had made a wrong turn but still on a trail. No information or research gives anyone the illusion that a trail goes to the top of the Grand Teton and when the trail ran out we resorted to land/nav skills to get to the start of the actual climbing route.

Such is not the case with San Jacinto. To have to get to the desired destination by taking a trail and then having to go off trail adds something that could cause problems. I don't think the same type of trail needs to be made up to, say Rabbit Peak as San Jacinto because of the numbers of people and the skills of the people that go to both places. There are many times all over the country when people get "lost" momentarily but are able to find their way back that don't get reported or end up a SAR mission. On several body recovery missions I've been on you can see where the person initially made an error and where this choice would have ended with no problem but this choice spelled their dome and sometimes when you look at the two choices they were presented both would seem plausible to the person.

I have no problem dealing with the trail and San Jacinto but can see how it could be a problem to others. My own inclination has tended towards not to hike to places with "boring trails" but to go x-country to places without trails over varying terrain (with some exceptions that anyone with a lot of off trail experience can appreciate ). Over the years I've liked "trail maintenance projects" more than hiking on the trails themselves and have done maintenance on some trails without ever going any farther than the place I worked on. If something happens with this person Fight On talked with then perhaps I'll be on another maintenance project.

Asabat, you have a point here because there are several different specifications to tread widths and slopes and such for trails. Perhaps a "ring around the rocks" at the top?

Perry, I don't want to cause problems so I'll sort of fade away on this.

[FIGHT ON]

Fight On, you realize this forum is not about fighting, right?

Sure! I was joking. Sorry I didn't use an emoticon so he'd get the joke.
Last thing I would do is send a kid alone up anywhere. It was hypothetical.

[FIGHT ON]

Such is not the case with San Jacinto. To have to get to the desired destination by taking a trail and then having to go off trail adds something that could cause problems. I don't think the same type of trail needs to be made up to, say Rabbit Peak as San Jacinto because of the numbers of people and the skills of the people that go to both places.

Bingo!

There is not a train of buses dumping hundreds of people at the Rabbit Peak Trail head.

No advertising saying there is a trail going up to the peak. No luring words like "will take you to the second highest point in Southern California. On clear days it is reported that you can see Catalina Island or the glow from Las Vegas at night."

People who hike Rabbit Peak Trail went out of their way big time and know a little bit more about what to expect.

A simple sign at every fork or potentially unclear point on the trail should be consistent. At least on this trail.

Asabats thought is totally possible. I have no idea. But I can find out. Eventually I will. I hope!

[AlanK]

No advertising saying there is a trail going up to the peak. No luring words like "will take you to the second highest point in Southern California."

How did we get started talking about Jepson Peak?

[FIGHT ON]

No advertising saying there is a trail going up to the peak. No luring words like "will take you to the second highest point in Southern California."

How did we get started talking about Jepson Peak?

Ah ha! More false advertising!

AlanK.
Maybe we better not let the Tram Tourist Hikers find out about this.
They might end up hiking from the summit north in search of Jepson!:shock: