Clarifying the trail at the peak

[Kevin]

Asabat has a point; visitors need to research where/how they are going and for many that research might be the site Fight On refers to.

I think everyone would agree with this - certainly I do. The problem I run into is - when is enough enough? How do you really know WHEN you've obtained a reasonable level of information to be able to handle both routine and unexpected events? Without talking with someone who is familiar with the area in question, it's always somewhat up in the air until you actually experience the trail/route/road.

Here's a local case in point: Last November I did a SC hike up 'Big' Iron, and since I live north of the San Gabriels (am a relative newcomer to SoCal) there "appeared" to be a road running north/south thru them. I did the usual Google research, trying to verify that, and everything I found indicated the road was there, which is not too unlike what the German tourist might have done. However ... my intuition said the road might not exist/be closed, so I drove the long 'way round. When I got into the San Gabriels, I drove north on that road, and sure enough - there was a sign indicating a rock slide some time earlier had closed the road. So, my "instincts" were correct in this case.

My point is - always do your research homework, but don't assume that because someone gets lost/turned around, that they didn't do their homework.

[asabat]

1. Nothing we do here on the list will change anything on the trail (although we can educate those who come here with questions).

2. Any changes to the trail have to be approved by the state park, and, while I haven't asked them about it (and really don't care myself), I haven't seen that they have any inclination to do anything after decades of use.

3. This point has been discussed ad nauseum on many forums many times, including the concern that "hikers" could get lost and die (and they have).

4. Trails have been closed because they were unsafe, or just deemed "unsafe." Be careful what you wish for. Being proactive and doing something more than just declaring a trail "unsafe" might fix the problem, just talking about it here and elsewhere may just close the trail.

[KathyW]

ducks or cairns
mountain lions or cougars
west versus east, but that's not it either because the ducks are cairns in Colorado and that's west of the Mississippi.

It's all so different, but all so similar

I always think it's kind of nice to find a duck along a route when I'm out peak-bagging - it assures me that someone else went the wrong way too.

I just don't see the harm in a few strategically placed ducks. At the same time, I don't see how you could get lost in the rock pile on top of San Jacinto.

[KathyW]

Here's a guy that would not like it if Hiker Hal came along:

http://www.rock-on-rock-on.com/index.html

[halhiker]

Here's a guy that would not like it if Hiker Hal came along:

http://www.rock-on-rock-on.com/index.html

I don't know but that doesn't look like wilderness to me.

[FIGHT ON]

At the same time, I don't see how you could get lost in the rock pile on top of San Jacinto.

Niether could I.
And that is the trap.
When you think only about yourself that is the conclusion.
These tourists might as well be drunk by the time they get up there.
It's not as hard getting to the top after the trail ends. The problem is that a person could wander to the south side of the pile and summit from that side.
It's the going back.
I called the state to see what they thought. Mr. Zone. 951-659-2607. He said he is sending two up tomorrow to see about an additional sign at the top with an arrow pointing back to the trail and making that section clear. He is one of those sar guys. Even he said he hears of people going west. Totally agrees. Turns out he is going to a meeting tomorrow to talk about missing and messed up signs up on all the trails around there anyway! So what great timing!

[Rick M]

I called the state to see what they thought. Mr. Zone. 951-659-2607. He said he is sending two up tomorrow to see about an additional sign at the top with an arrow pointing back to the trail and making that section clear. He is one of those sar guys. Even he said he hears of people going west. Totally agrees. Turns out he is going to a meeting tomorrow to talk about missing and messed up signs up on all the trails around there anyway! So what great timing!

Outstanding. Just shows what discussion on this site can lead too!
Right On Fight On!

And halhiker, I think that guy from Rock-on-Rock is selling pre-made cairns (abstract ducks). I do carry rocks in my pack sometimes.

[halhiker]

I took my nine year old up San Jacinto today and he had not problem finding the top. I let him lead.

I also showed him how to kick over a couple of ducks on the way. He made me so proud!

The problem at the top is NOT signage or lack of duckage. On a summer day I never see fewer than ten people up top. They all seem to make it OK. The problem at the top is there are too many use trails before you get to the cabin. Once you get to the cabin it's pretty easy to see which way to go: UP! And coming down is just as easy. Although from the cabin to the .3 sign the trail could be cleaned up a bit with maintenance and eradication of improper trails.

I don't see any need for signs. If you bail off the South side, you will still hit the trail and even the dumbest tourist should be able to figure which way it is back to the Tram although a MAP and COMPASS might come in handy at this point.

Now if they bail off the NORTH side, that's a different matter.

I did run into some tourists who were going to bail off the main trial about a half a mile BEFORE they got to Wellman Divide. (Do we need signs everywhere?) The guy knew he had to make a left but wasn't sure where. I had him follow my 9 year old and we all made it out OK.

[Rick M]

The problem at the top is NOT signage or lack of duckage. On a summer day I never see fewer than ten people up top. They all seem to make it OK. The problem at the top is there are too many use trails before you get to the cabin. Once you get to the cabin it's pretty easy to see which way to go: UP! And coming down is just as easy. Although from the cabin to the .3 sign the trail could be cleaned up a bit with maintenance and eradication of improper trails.

I agree with all but the "They all seem to make it OK." part.

Cleaning up the trail will help and cut down on so many misleading use trails. Years ago when I took BMTC with the Sierra Club we were hiking up from San Antonio Falls headed for the Ski Hut and Baldy Bowl where one of the courses' classes was to be done (as part of becoming a trip leader it was suggested I go through the class to familiarize myself with what Sierra Club hikers learn from taking that class). I was near the end of about 20 participants hiking up when I noticed the people ahead (leader included) were headed in the wrong direction after having missed a turn. I called up to the leader about it and after some discussion, I had been up that trail 100s of times, we turned around and got back on the trail to the hut. When the decision was made to turn around I overheard two of the participants say that if we got lost going that way it would be MY Fault!. And this was on a well traveled trail. A side note to that outing was upon reaching the hut in a cold rain/sleet/fog, the hut was locked. The instructors had forgot the keys and as people got cold (I was making warm drinks for people on a stove I had brought) the decision was finally made to retreat down the mountain.

People missing a turn on a trail happens all the time. The first few times this happens people quickly realize this when the trail totally runs out or into difficult terraine. But as this happens over and over, this misleading error becomes more like the trail they were following. I have had the unpleasant task of recovering people who have been killed from such things. Simple trail maintenance solves this.

Every trail needs its share of maintenance like everything else. To do formal trail maintenance requires the approval/supervision of the agency with jurisdiction but when you are using a well used trail it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a rock that has tumbled down and is now sitting on the trail needs moving. 99% of the time I see others step over/around it while I will take a second or two to move it to the side. I know if I later come down tired, in the dark, looking elsewhere, I sure wouldn't want a sprain by stepping on it. Obviously, on some trails that see very little use, this may not be an option (too many rocks). Funds for maintaining trails aren't exactly flooding these agencies and it doesn't take much effort on the part of users to do what they can when they can.

[halhiker]

The problem at the top is NOT signage or lack of duckage. On a summer day I never see fewer than ten people up top. They all seem to make it OK. The problem at the top is there are too many use trails before you get to the cabin. Once you get to the cabin it's pretty easy to see which way to go: UP! And coming down is just as easy. Although from the cabin to the .3 sign the trail could be cleaned up a bit with maintenance and eradication of improper trails.

I agree with all but the "They all seem to make it OK." part.

Cleaning up the trail will help and cut down on so many misleading use trails. Years ago when I took BMTC with the Sierra Club we were hiking up from San Antonio Falls headed for the Ski Hut and Baldy Bowl where one of the courses' classes was to be done (as part of becoming a trip leader it was suggested I go through the class to familiarize myself with what Sierra Club hikers learn from taking that class). I was near the end of about 20 participants hiking up when I noticed the people ahead (leader included) were headed in the wrong direction after having missed a turn. I called up to the leader about it and after some discussion, I had been up that trail 100s of times, we turned around and got back on the trail to the hut. When the decision was made to turn around I overheard two of the participants say that if we got lost going that way it would be MY Fault!. And this was on a well traveled trail. A side note to that outing was upon reaching the hut in a cold rain/sleet/fog, the hut was locked. The instructors had forgot the keys and as people got cold (I was making warm drinks for people on a stove I had brought) the decision was finally made to retreat down the mountain.

People missing a turn on a trail happens all the time. The first few times this happens people quickly realize this when the trail totally runs out or into difficult terraine. But as this happens over and over, this misleading error becomes more like the trail they were following. I have had the unpleasant task of recovering people who have been killed from such things. Simple trail maintenance solves this.

Every trail needs its share of maintenance like everything else. To do formal trail maintenance requires the approval/supervision of the agency with jurisdiction but when you are using a well used trail it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a rock that has tumbled down and is now sitting on the trail needs moving. 99% of the time I see others step over/around it while I will take a second or two to move it to the side. I know if I later come down tired, in the dark, looking elsewhere, I sure wouldn't want a sprain by stepping on it. Obviously, on some trails that see very little use, this may not be an option (too many rocks). Funds for maintaining trails aren't exactly flooding these agencies and it doesn't take much effort on the part of users to do what they can when they can.

My "they all seem to make it OK" referred specifically to those people whom I see on the top.

Today, due to a late start there were only about ten there. We missed the scout troop that went up in the AM but caught them at Round Valley.

Whether on the trail or on the highway, people make wrong decisions. I had a lady check into the hotel I work at who missed her turn off at Cook Street and drove all the way to BLYTHE before figuring out she had to come back 100 miles. The problem was not the signage but the driver. I'm sure she was on her cell phone; why didn't she use it to call for directions?

There are enough navigational tools available that no one should ever get lost but they figure why bring a map when they are only in Palm Springs?

The fault does not lie with the signs or lack thereof but with the users themselves. For some people you could put a sign every hundred feet and they'd still get lost.