Clarifying the trail at the peak

[FIGHT ON]

What gives someone the authority to build a makeshift trail marker? What happened to leaving only footprints?

I don't need a cairn to mark the top of mountain but as more of a memorial of being at the top I find it acceptable. I've had first timers add a rock to a summit cairn and it makes getting to the top more memorable for them. It's a simple, low impact way of "planting your flag".

[FIGHT ON]

I don't need a cairn to mark the top of mountain but as more of a memorial of being at the top I find it acceptable. I've had first timers add a rock to a summit cairn and it makes getting to the top more memorable for them. It's a simple, low impact way of "planting your flag".

What gives someone the authority to build a makeshift trail marker?

What happened to leaving only footprints?

[Perry]

It's just a pile of rocks. If you care one way or the other....does it really matter? I think the trail between the peak junction and the peak shelter hasn't been maintained in a very long time. At the boulders, there is a user trail going north that makes a sharp left and heads west towards the peak, with small switchbacks.

[FIGHT ON]

You may put up ducks anywhere you wish. Most of the time I wouldn't care or bother with them.

Now, however, I have a new mission when I go hiking: knock over as many ducks are possible.

I never put a duck or a cairn anywhere. And I never will put one anywhere either. Never knocked one down. Never will either. So any duck or cairn you knock down won't be any of mine.
But If you keep knocking them down, eventually you will knock one down that will be the key for someones safety. I hardly ever see them. When I do though I just leave them alone. Some person may actually have placed it there to help himself find his way. Or a lost person may see it. Maybe that is the way he uses his skills. Maybe he got lost or forgot his map. People do make mistakes regardless of their skills. Like Ellen did. I agree it's a stretch but someone really might need it to save their life.
So if you weigh that stretch of against your perception that ducks are placed only to tell you personally that it is THE only way,(which by the way if you really believe that then there is no point in any attempt to reason with you) why would you choose to knock it down?
Look at your reason.
"Some people may find it presumptuous that I would not leave someone else's trail marker alone but I think it's presumptuous that those people think their way is THE way."
Look at that! LOOK! You said that! That's crazy dude. comeon??
You think someone is telling you that? Nobody thinks that. You are the only one. And being the only one is not a special thing in this case.
Ok let's say some of these people actually say that out loud when they put theirs down. "I AM PLACING THIS DUCK HERE TODAY BECAUSE I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE WAY. so what.
Nobody is placing them with you in mind. That I would bet on.
I don't see as many as you guys describe. But even if I did I would just figure some kids put them there to practice boy scout skills. I see some sections of trails that are lined with rocks on both sides. Knock them down too?
So go ahead and keep knocking them down, nobody is going to stop you
I'm not going to knock any of em over, even if I know it's yours.

[simonov]

I just don't approve of self-appointed direction gurus presupposing their way is the best way.

But you are all in favor of self-appointed duck demolishers, eh?

[FIGHT ON]

Now, however, I have a new mission when I go hiking: knock over as many ducks are possible.

oh you hooooo! haly wally over here!!
Look, Just look!!!! :lol: LOOK AT THIS ONE! WOOF WOOF WOOF, GOGETITBOY! "DUCKASAURUS"


Just gotta ask, where do you suppose this big juicy trail marker is?? Hmmm?
And don't be tellin' me you didn't notice it either.
Or could it be you've never been on this trail? hmmm? many unanswered questions!
And it's not like on the edge of the trail either, IT'S RIGHT SMACK DAB, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRAIL TOO! IN PLAIN SIGHT. AND IT'S STILL THERE.
And you know it's tellin' YOU the same message that you've been getting from all those other ducks. "THIS IS THE WAAAAAAAAAAY!!! FOLLOW MEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO? WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO? IT'S THERE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

quite the dilemma.
Note: If it's ever gone just know that I didn't do it. DON'T LOOK AT ME!

[AlanK]

That's a burial mound. It was put up by a group from the University of Texas January 4, 2006.

[FIGHT ON]

NO WAY!

[asabat]

Generally I am against ducks, both on and off trail. This comes from an experience years ago in Gardiner Basis, on a trail that was built in the 1930s but not maintained in many years. As the old trail came to a large rock cliff, the trail disappeared. Noticing a duck, I followed it, and another, and another, for about ten minutes when, deja vu, I was back where I had started. I dropped my pack, did the loop again, knocking down all the ducks, then got out my map and compass and continued on my way.

The problem with ducks is they don't say anything except that someone was once there and piled some rocks together. They don't say if they mark the trail you are on, a side trail to a campsite, or even just a rock pile someone built for fun.

In addition, building them is, IMO, generally ILLEGAL. From the San Jac State Park wilderness permit application:

"Erect no structures made from rocks, branches, or other natural materials."

Now, I'm not a total fanatic about this. There are places, such as Fuller Ridge, where snow lingers a little longer and a duck may nicely mark where the trail exits the snow field, keeping hikers on the trail rather than creating new use trails all over. But off trail, never. But then again, in the North Fork up Whitney climbers are actually encouraged to follow trail markers (ducks, etc.) to stay on one route rather than create numerous routes.

There has been discussion in the past on the PCT-L about having better markers for the PCT in the San Jacs, so thruhikers, usually going over San Jac in April and early May, do not get lost and die (several have in recent years). Some that have argued against marking the trail better (handrails, anyone?) have even been accused of causing the death of these hikers. I'm torn on this subject, but the bottom line is it is a wilderness, and users need to know how to take care of themselves. This is even easier now with these new-fangled GPS units .

So, as you can see, my position is clear. Sort of. Most of the time. Maybe.

[FIGHT ON]

Generally I am against ducks, both on and off trail. This comes from an experience years ago in Gardiner Basis, on a trail that was built in the 1930s but not maintained in many years. As the old trail came to a large rock cliff, the trail disappeared. Noticing a duck, I followed it, and another, and another, for about ten minutes when, deja vu, I was back where I had started. I dropped my pack, did the loop again, knocking down all the ducks, then got out my map and compass and continued on my way.

The problem with ducks is they don't say anything except that someone was once there and piled some rocks together. They don't say if they mark the trail you are on, a side trail to a campsite, or even just a rock pile someone built for fun.

In addition, building them is, IMO, generally ILLEGAL. From the San Jac State Park wilderness permit application:

"Erect no structures made from rocks, branches, or other natural materials."

Now, I'm not a total fanatic about this. There are places, such as Fuller Ridge, where snow lingers a little longer and a duck may nicely mark where the trail exits the snow field, keeping hikers on the trail rather than creating new use trails all over. But off trail, never. But then again, in the North Fork up Whitney climbers are actually encouraged to follow trail markers (ducks, etc.) to stay on one route rather than create numerous routes.

There has been discussion in the past on the PCT-L about having better markers for the PCT in the San Jacs, so thruhikers, usually going over San Jac in April and early May, do not get lost and die (several have in recent years). Some that have argued against marking the trail better (handrails, anyone?) have even been accused of causing the death of these hikers. I'm torn on this subject, but the bottom line is it is a wilderness, and users need to know how to take care of themselves. This is even easier now with these new-fangled GPS units .

So, as you can see, my position is clear. Sort of. Most of the time. Maybe.

I didn't know about the illegal part. But is a small rock topped with a smaller rock a structure?
That's what I was saying earlier about three rocks stacked only. Not very clear if it's pointing or not. If there was a separate rock adjacent then that would be clear.
I believe most people don't put them around to mislead even if they may be mislead. Everyone I've seen has helped stay on a course. When I see them I don't rely on them but take it as a hint keeping in mind that it could be a fraud like you experienced.If I saw a series of ducks that led to an obvious hazard I would remove them to save a life.
If they help people from wandering around messing up sensitive areas then why not leave them there?
I get the part about it is a wilderness, and users need to know how to take care of themselves. but if you see one that clearly can help stay on course why not just leave it there? I really don't get that part.