Clarifying the trail at the peak

[FIGHT ON]

I don't need a cairn to mark the top of mountain but as more of a memorial of being at the top I find it acceptable. I've had first timers add a rock to a summit cairn and it makes getting to the top more memorable for them. It's a simple, low impact way of "planting your flag".

If I see it I'll knock it down.

[FIGHT ON]

Jim - good to see someone else use the word duck. Two weeks ago on Baldy, I asked some West San Gabriel S&R guys about a duck I saw going to Harwood; and they looked at me like I was crazy. Then I asked about the cairn and they knew what I was talking about.

If it's any help, a duck is small pile of rocks, generally three, piled directly atop of one another in a vertical stack.

A cairn is a large pile of rocks, built into (generally) a pillar or column like structure. The base of a cairn might have 10+ rocks in it instead of just one as in a duck.

This is a bit of a gray area, but generally a small stack of rocks with more or less distinct levels (typically three levels) is a duck whereas a large stack of rocks is a cairn.

Hard to believe that some SAR guys wouldn't know what a duck is. Maybe it was the context? Maybe it isn't so much that they were familiar with cairn and not with duck but rather they may have been thinking "waterfowl." I would probably look at you weird too if you started talking about the (quack, quack) "ducks" on Harwood.

I have never ever given this one single thought until now and I have been to the top of San Jacinto a hundred times or more.

I just figured from the hut you head west to the peak and from the peak you head east to the hut. They are not that far apart.

Ducks are a bad idea. If there were any there, I would knock them down.

The rule of thumb that I've heard in the Sierra Club is that one generally shouldn't make ducks when truly off trail whereas marking a trail is OK.

I think the idea is that people going XC want a wilderness experience. If there are ducks all over heck and back, it detracts from the wildnerness experience. On my recent Cornell, Jean, and Marion peak bagging tour, there was a confusing welter of ducks leading every which way. I found them to be something of an eyesore and completely unhelpful. Who knows where that person was heading that day and whether or not their route was a good one?

Now on a trail, one expects to be able to follow the trail; a well marked trail is generally a good thing. There have been people who have gone the wrong direction off of the summit which resulted in an RMRU call out such as Prashant who RMRU had to go out and find earlier this week. If we can prevent a few RMRU call outs and more importantly prevent SAR situations, marking a route on the final approach to the summit is a small price to pay.

I can't imagine that the people on this forum would need such markings; most of us are pretty familiar with map and compass. I'm more concerned about the tourists.

Don't the Boy Scouts use these rock symbols anymore?
Two rocks stacked with one on the side, right or left turn. One on the top of a bigger one means this is the way. etc.

[Hikin_Jim]

Zip: A line of rocks is not generally referred to as a duck. I've seen plenty of those lines of rocks, particularly over slabs of bare rock, but I don't think rocks in a line have any specific name.

FIGHT ON: I would not use those antique Boy Scout signals. It looks like those symbols are pre-war (20's? 30's?). I wouldn't use any of them; people would probably interpret them in the standard way not this antique BSA way. Use of these would result in confusion not communication. For example, three rocks in a stack is generally regarded as "this is the trail" not "important warning."

Three signals of any kind is an internationally accepted distress signal. Think of SOS. It's three groups of three. (SOS does not stand for anything despite rumors about "Save Our Souls"). On the BSA chart three smoke signals means "good news." Try lighting three signal fires in the SJW and I guarantee the result will not be good news.

Generally, cutting blazes in trees has fallen out of favor inasmuch as damaging the bark may cause the tree's death. I believe it's illegal nowadays.

In an emergency, I might break branches, but one generally should not tear up the vegetation in a wilderness area.

Don't use these symbols; you'll just be wasting your time and causing confusion.

As for the "reliablity" of a ducked trail - am scratching my head re: some of the comments in this thread on that one. I've never followed a series of ducks and had it lead no where.

I'm not talking about ducked trails whether use trails or "official" trails; I'm talking about ducks in the middle of nowhere that aren't even close to a use trail let alone an "official" trail.

On a side note, I've seen a lot of what you're talking about (cairns high enough to mark a trail in snowy conditions) in Colorado. I've also seen such cairns in Hawaii on bare lava and in Utah marking trails on slickrock.

[halhiker]

I don't need a cairn to mark the top of mountain but as more of a memorial of being at the top I find it acceptable. I've had first timers add a rock to a summit cairn and it makes getting to the top more memorable for them. It's a simple, low impact way of "planting your flag".

If I see it I'll knock it down.

Be my guest!

[juguetico]

It is sad and disappointing that anyone would go out of their way to destroy someone elses trail markings. That kind of juvenile behavior is probably carried out in all aspects of their lives. We have to remember, that we are visitors in the wilderness. I love and respect the wilderness and I assumed that anyone that would take the time and trouble to venture into it would share the same feelings. I am wrong, yet again.

[FIGHT ON]

A cairn is not a part of the trail but a marker for someone who does not know how to follow a trail.

Cairns are an annoyance because you can never know if the cairn is in the right place, if the person who built it knows what the hell they are doing, if they are taking you in the WRONG direction or even if they are deviating from the main trail and creating more trampling of sensitive areas.

I, too, have gone the wrong direction on a trail only to discover a previously unknown area. I have come back different ways on several occasions and like it because I get to see different terrain.

Some people may find it presumptuous that I would not leave someone else's trail marker alone but I think it's presumptuous that those people think their way is THE way.

I don't need your stinkin' directions.

If you want to find your direction, I would recommend a map and compass (or GPS if you know how to use it).

Except to mark a summit I can think of NO use for a cairn whatsoever.

I think we're going to disagree on this one but that's OK.

You keep building those ducks and I'll keep knocking 'em down.


I don't need a cairn to mark the top of mountain but as more of a memorial of being at the top I find it acceptable. I've had first timers add a rock to a summit cairn and it makes getting to the top more memorable for them. It's a simple, low impact way of "planting your flag".

These so called memorials are not a part of a summit but a marker for people who accidentally stumbled across one.

These markers are an annoyance because you can never know if the memory is yours or not, if the person who built it knows what the hell they are trying to remember, if they are taking your memory in the WRONG direction or even if they are deviating from the main memory and creating more memories of sensitive memories.

Actually these people don't leave this stupid stuff there for any reason other than to mark where they never intended to go in the first place.

I've seen these people.

Wandering around and around like mosquitoes colliding aimlessly in a dense gas.

Using our forests like a pinball game bouncing off trees and rocks as they go.

Clanging pots and pans to simulate arcade sounds.

They've been walking around like zombies for weeks and are using our summits like a dog marks his territory.

I know whats really going on, they're lost. They can't tell the difference between up or down so its there using our summits, to mark where they never intended to go. I know, I can read minds.

Use a map, and a compass.

If you can't afford one, tuff, it's not my fault.

Stop messing up MY mountains.

Stop changing the elevations of our mountain tops.

When I set foot on a summit I expect to see just that, a summit and nothing else.

Some people may find it presumptuous that I would not leave someone else's summit marker alone but I think it's presumptuous that those people think their memory marker is THE memory marker.

I don't need your stinkin' memory marker.

If you want to find your direction, I would recommend a map and compass (or GPS if you know how to use it).

Except for me and my memories I can think of NO use for a summit marker whatsoever.

I think I'm going to agree with myself on this one and that's OK.

I can not figure out how some people think low impact is acceptable. ZERO IMPACT is idea buddy boy!

You keep building those memories and I'll keep knocking 'em down.

It's MY mountain. Let's keep it that way.

[FIGHT ON]

hey, fight on, i thought you were going to stay away from the caffeine

please, don't get me started.

[FIGHT ON]

I think the idea is that people going XC want a wilderness experience. If there are ducks all over heck and back, it detracts from the wildnerness experience. On my recent Cornell, Jean, and Marion peak bagging tour, there was a confusing welter of ducks leading every which way. I found them to be something of an eyesore and completely unhelpful. Who knows where that person was heading that day and whether or not their route was a good one?

Now on a trail, one expects to be able to follow the trail; a well marked trail is generally a good thing. There have been people who have gone the wrong direction off of the summit which resulted in an RMRU call out such as Prashant who RMRU had to go out and find earlier this week. If we can prevent a few RMRU call outs and more importantly prevent SAR situations, marking a route on the final approach to the summit is a small price to pay.

This makes sense to me. Ducks used on trails are used to mark an expected clear trail that has become unclear. They should remain until the trail has been restored to it's intended condition or until it becomes a clear trail again. Ducks used off trails should be removed. But only by the party who left them.
Knocking down trail ducks is as insane as placing random ducks in off trail areas.

[AlanK]

SAVE THE DUCKS!!!

[FIGHT ON]

For example, three rocks in a stack is generally regarded as "this is the trail" not "important warning."

I was only talking about the ducks.
The only think I could find on rocks stacked for "this is the trail" is two rocks only.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... marker.png.

That old boy scout two rocks with one on the side makes sense to me. It's like an arrow. pretty clear. I agree it's old though and haven't run across any but I couldn't find anything other than that link.