Clarifying the trail at the peak

[zippetydude]

Maybe I'm just a slow learner, but I find that every time I go up the rock pile at the peak, I come out at a different point along the trail when I come back down.

I get the idea that many of the hikers getting lost fall victim to the rather disorienting view from the peak, and come back down in the wrong direction without knowing it.

Has any official route ever been established? If so, I'd be willing to help clarify the trail above the hut, if I can figure out what that trail might be.

Any thoughts?

z

[Hikin_Jim]

I've had that experience while coming down too: winding up in a bit of a different spot than I had intended. The problem is that when coming from the summit hut, it's a lot of rock. Pretty hard to put in a trail there without a lot of dynamite and construction.

One could put in ducks, or one could use paint dots. I'm not sure ducks would be helpful since a lot of tourist hikers might not really understand what they're for, and ducks aren't very permanent. Paint dots or arrows would be far more effective but would mar the scenery. If paint dots save lives, maybe it's worth it?

[Rumpled]

I went up San Jacinto for the first time yesterday, and found it diffiult to figure out where to go about 75 yards past the hut.
I did see one orange-like colored duck; but didn't spot any others. I saw a guy pretty much bounding down and kinda took his way up.
Going down, I found a better way down than I did on the way up; and still found that same duck, but no others.

I also bagged Miller, and it took me three approaches to find an acceptable climb for me.

Jim - good to see someone else use the word duck. Two weeks ago on Baldy, I asked some West San Gabriel S&R guys about a duck I saw going to Harwood; and they looked at me like I was crazy. Then I asked about the cairn and they knew what I was talking about.

So, is there some regionalism or something where some people use duck and some cairn? Maybe a poll is in order.

[FIGHT ON]

Well, I've always agreed with the old saying, "if it walks like a cairn and quacks like a cairn, It can't be a duck." http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... airn_3.jpg

[phydeux]

I've never thought there was a trail between the summit rocks and the area around the hut . Just find your own way between the two going up and down on the east side if the summit. There's enough traffic in that area where its tough to get out of range of human voices.

As for finding the hut/trail while coming down, try using a (paper) map and compass. You can get the general direction(eastward) then overcompensate to the south and you should be able to pick up the trail coming up to the summit hut. From there you can keep descending back to the main trail, or go back up to the hut. The distance is not great, but short & simple stretches in populated areas (like this) are a good way to practice navigation with a map & compass.

I'm still not using a GPS - I run into way too many folks who put their total reliance on these things, including having to know EXACTLY where they are at all times, rather than staying aware of the general area, landforms, and their direction of travel. And the reason I run into them is they have no idea where they are or which way they need to go, and have to ask.

[halhiker]

I have never ever given this one single thought until now and I have been to the top of San Jacinto a hundred times or more.

I just figured from the hut you head west to the peak and from the peak you head east to the hut. They are not that far apart.

Ducks are a bad idea. If there were any there, I would knock them down.

[FIGHT ON]

I have never ever given this one single thought until now and I have been to the top of San Jacinto a hundred times or more.

I just figured from the hut you head west to the peak and from the peak you head east to the hut. They are not that far apart.

Ducks are a bad idea. If there were any there, I would knock them down.

I agree that it isn't that far from the summit to the hut and I haven't had a problem there either. I'm surprised that leaving the summit some go back the wrong way. Like Hal said just walk east but I got messed up on skyline once which is clearly a trail and ended up walking down for a while instead of up so I can't be too surprised.

What I don't agree with is knocking down cairns.
A cairn is part of the trail. Even if it seems ridiculous.
A trail is a continuous line of cairns.
Sometimes a section of a trail is there simply to aim the hiker toward the goal. Same with a cairn. Sometimes I am walking on a trail and it gets to a part that is washed out like in a river area. The trail is gone but on the other side is a cairn. Knocking down that cairn can cause some to get lost.
Is altering a trail or making it more difficult to follow the idea? I don't think so. I think most people use trails for what they were intended for. To get to where they wanted to go.
If you want to walk around where you don't see any trails then stay off and away from them. There are plenty of areas around without trails. And other ways to get to the top of any peak without walking on a trail.
Might as well carry a shovel and a rake with you and cover up the rest of the trail. Why stop with just a few cairns?
I thought the goal was to provide access for people to different parts of the wilderness.

[zippetydude]

Right on, Fight On. I don't get it at all.

I'm not for painting dots, but knocking down other people's markers so they can't find their way? That sounds mean-spirited, and the normal trail custom is one-for-all and all-for-one so that nobody gets lost. Right?

In fact, when I go off trail, I often post cairns along my way so I can find my way back. I think I'd be rather upset if I was making my way back and found somebody knocking down my markers.

Nobody can keep you from doing that, but why would you even consider doing it?

z

[FIGHT ON]

Right on, Fight On. I don't get it at all.

I'm not for painting dots, but knocking down other people's markers so they can't find their way? That sounds mean-spirited, and the normal trail custom is one-for-all and all-for-one so that nobody gets lost. Right?

In fact, when I go off trail, I often post cairns along my way so I can find my way back. I think I'd be rather upset if I was making my way back and found somebody knocking down my markers.

Nobody can keep you from doing that, but why would you even consider doing it?

z

Yes Mr. Z.

How ironic "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would call it a duck."

[halhiker]

A cairn is not a part of the trail but a marker for someone who does not know how to follow a trail.

Cairns are an annoyance because you can never know if the cairn is in the right place, if the person who built it knows what the hell they are doing, if they are taking you in the WRONG direction or even if they are deviating from the main trail and creating more trampling of sensitive areas.

I, too, have gone the wrong direction on a trail only to discover a previously unknown area. I have come back different ways on several occasions and like it because I get to see different terrain.

Some people may find it presumptuous that I would not leave someone else's trail marker alone but I think it's presumptuous that those people think their way is THE way.

I don't need your stinkin' directions.

If you want to find your direction, I would recommend a map and compass (or GPS if you know how to use it).

Except to mark a summit I can think of NO use for a cairn whatsoever.

I think we're going to disagree on this one but that's OK.

You keep building those ducks and I'll keep knocking 'em down.