marion mt. trail to SJ summit - how long is it really????

General Palm Springs area.

Postby johnnyb » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:05 pm

thanks all, for the data. maybe it is only 6 mi. maybe I just need to train harder. :shock: ('cuz it did beat me up a bit).

We had a gps unit with us, but alas, it did lose signal alot so no good data.

One note to those heading up: the beginning of the trailhead seems easy enough to follow up, but on the way down I saw 3 groups come out at 3 different locations and none of them were the starting point! (I was one of those 3). Something about all the logging and patches of wood chips must make the trail hard to follow when you are tired. :roll:
YMMV, just a heads up.

great forum, great mountain.
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Postby Rob » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:24 pm

johnnyb wrote:One note to those heading up: the beginning of the trailhead seems easy enough to follow up, but on the way down I saw 3 groups come out at 3 different locations and none of them were the starting point! (I was one of those 3). Something about all the logging and patches of wood chips must make the trail hard to follow when you are tired. :roll:
I returned to the logging area near the trailhead 1 hour after sunset. Wanting to keep my name out of the newspaper, I zigged 200 yards to the right, joined the paved campground road, and waltzed back to my car.
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Postby tkestas » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:55 pm

On Sat. 6/28 my Garmin Etrex H pegged Marion Mtn. at 11.4 miles R/T from the honey shack at the campground.
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Postby johnnyb » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:08 pm

Probably don't need to beat this topic to death any more, but I've heard (meaning don't have any valid data) that gps units might not do so well with switchbacks.
Anybody else hear this? Anybody got any data true/false?

Just wondering,
John.
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Postby FIGHT ON » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:09 pm

johnnyb wrote:Probably don't need to beat this topic to death any more, but I've heard (meaning don't have any valid data) that gps units might not do so well with switchbacks.
Anybody else hear this? Anybody got any data true/false?

Just wondering,
John.


http://www.engineersupply.com/category. ... 4&affid=12
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Postby KathyW » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:02 am

GigaMike wrote:I went up the Marion trail on Saturday and my GPS recorded a total of 5.95 miles to the summit. When I imported it into TOPO! and fixed a few lost signal spots, it showed a total of 5.75 miles. It didn't feel longer than 6 miles to me.

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My GPS mileage reading is always longer than the mileage TOPO gives me based on the track of a hike I upload.

The version of the Tom Harrison Map I have has a total of 5.8 miles for the trail from the parking area to the summit and I believe he uses a measuring wheel to measure most of the route.
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Postby AlanK » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:58 am

I have played with TOPO! a bit. It is quite accurate for courses with relatively few curves, such as roads. On typical hiking trails with switchbacks, it typically comes out on the order of 10% short. I believe that this is simply due to missing fine detail.

GPS is usually more accurate. It depends on how often data are acquired. For typical settings and typical pace, it usually comes out within a percent or two of known distances. (In other words, I agre with Kathy that GPS distance is usually longer than TOPO! distance.) Of course, one has to be careful with "known." Many signs on hiking trails are inaccurate, sometimes comically so.
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Postby FIGHT ON » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:09 pm

KathyW wrote:The version of the Tom Harrison Map I have has a total of 5.8 miles for the trail from the parking area to the summit and I believe he uses a measuring wheel to measure most of the route.

Can't argue with this method!
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GPSBS

Postby FIGHT ON » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:36 am

johnnyb wrote:Probably don't need to beat this topic to death any more, but I've heard (meaning don't have any valid data) that gps units might not do so well with switchbacks.
Anybody else hear this? Anybody got any data true/false?

Just wondering,
John.


There has been some claims about how accurate the gps units are so
I fished around a bit and found some surprising information about how accurate the latest gps receivers actually are. Including wrist bound models.
I called Garim and asked about how accurate their best units are for measuring trails. They told me that these units aren't really designed for accuracy in mountain trails. More for approximate readings where there is no obstructions blocking required satellites. They told me that the units take readings anywhere within an 18 foot wide circle around where ever the unit is. And as you know our trails veer and twist randomly from side to side and could not possibly be measured accurately with an 18 foot wide instrument.
And this would be under best conditions.
Also noted was that these units are even less accurate with the elevation and loss gain which needs to be considered to be accurate in this. The 3rd dimension, if you will. Trails go up and down as well as side to side, randomly, for those reading this who have never been on a mountain trail before.
Here the 18 foot swath is enlarged to a whopping 100 feet. (imagine being surrounded by an 18 foot x 100 foot bubble and trying to measure a trail with it!)
There have been some amateur experiments that confirm this. When using a gps and comparing the return result, in ideal conditions, without a witness, was declared "accurate" when showing an inconsistency of over 33 yards!
How a gps would work on this particular trail is a guess at best. I wouldn't use a gps to get a reliable distance.
I got nothing against gps units. They have other features that can help approximate elevation, way points and other things that can help in hiking safety. But when it comes to measuring distances on our trails, the numbers that they display have no meaning whatsoever. I mean I could do better using a 100 foot tape!
If this hurts any ones feelings let me say take your feelings and set them aside. I'm talkin' facts here.
I do believe that some day they will become dead on where there is no bubble around it. Those days will eventually be here. But not now.
If you really wanna know how long a trail is, I mean really wanna know then use a wheel. (unless there are ducks on the trail, but we have a guy that takes care of those so no worries.)
To me using a gps to measure a trail is like trying to duplicate the mona lisa using a paint roller.
And, AND they don't get shiny when you walk off the trail either. I asked about that too!
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Postby AlanK » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:49 pm

:roll:
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