Here we go again?

[AlanK]

There wasn't, if I recall correctly, ANY criticism whatsoever of her actions, at least not from members of this board. Is that not indicative of a double standard? Are we not less likely to criticize friends publicly, even when criticism is warranted? Does the fact that she was "honest and forthright" about the experience absolve her from criticism?

As I mentioned, had the incident involved a solo hiker who was not a friend to many on this board, that person would have been severely criticized for not having carried proper winter gear or a cell phone (the latter an unreliable means of communication in the mountains). Again, I do understand the reasons for being reticent to offer criticism in this case.

Nevertheless, I do respect your opinion, Alan, but let's not dismiss the fact that, as flawed human beings, we tend to avoid publicly criticizing those with whom we share a friendship.

I agree that there was little enough criticism of Ellen on this Board that one could miss it entirely. She has established herself as a friend of many here. I agree with your last statement that we humans tend to be less publicly critical of our friends than of strangers. To me, that is an inconsistency but it does not indicate a double standard on the Board. We are all free to choose when and how we comment.

An example of what (to me) would represent a double standard: Someone posts a reasoned criticism of Ellen and gets hammered while the people doing the hammering freely criticize others. Actually, to have a double standard, that kind of thing would have to happen regularly. But I think we're just using the term "double standard" differently. Humans do that kind of thing too!

I will say that I don't feel personally critical of what Ellen did. She went out alone, was reasonably well-prepared, had an unfortunate accident, went through an ordeal with the aid of courage and luck (having the Hut), and was rescued by SAR people doing what SAR people do. (And hats off to them for it!!!) One assumes a risk in going out alone in the winter, which she recognized in her comments afterwards. She also recognized that there were things she could have included in her pack that would have been very helpful, making some potential criticism unnecessary. That is what I was referring to in calling her report honest.

I do not want to defend all of the criticism that has been made here, including some comments of ODC leaders. I have a generally quite positive impression of the ODC and some of the leaders who have received comments here. I am not inclined ot be too critical of anyone based on limited information. On the other hand, I don't find most of the criticism posted here to be mean-spirited (which people other than you have claimed).

Neither you nor anyone else is required to agree with me about Ellen's accident or the ODC or anything else!

By the way, if you have constructive criticism to offer regarding Ellen's accident, I'll bet she would take it well. Personally, I don't feel that I have much to offer in that vein that she hadn't thought of herself long ago. One thing I like about her report and the associated discussion is that one can learn a lot from it. I'm also glad that this Board actually contributed to saving her life!

[Yichus]

Hi Alan,

Your points are well taken. I appreciate your comments. We disagree, of course, but I'm glad we can do so agreeably.

Personally, I welcome criticism--there is so much to criticize!--so long as it's delivered in a constructive manner and without condescension.

[zippetydude]

While I would perhaps withhold public criticism of a friend, that's not why I didn't have any negative comments on Ellen's adventure.

I had no criticism because I think she did it right.

Wilderness presents danger. We, all of us here on this board, go in anyway.

Some believe in carrying the 10 essentials (whatever they are, I personally don't know), some carry more, some less. But nothing we carry - including cell phones, PLB's, crampons, ice axes, etc., removes the danger. It simply increases the percentages of survival in the event of a problem.

Withe regard to the many posts about the ODC, I think it's important to distinguish between formal rules an organization follows and the personal codes which we all maintain. They're likely to be in conflict, and this disagreement can create problems that would not otherwise exist.

Organizing a group is different from leading a group. Organizing means helping people connect - leading means being responsible for the group much like being the captain of a team.

Because of my own personal code of behavior, I can't simply organize a group, I am wholly unable to leave a person behind on the trail. This may sound like I think I'm this wonderful idealist, but just the opposite is true: It makes me of no value to others in orchestrating these sorts of outdoor activities. I don't have enough time to be a trail sweep and make sure everyone makes it up, and I won't set up an activity unless I can do just that. So, at the end of the day, this internal conflict assures that I will be of no value to anyone other than myself. That's not good. So, I'm in no position to offer criticism, since they are both contributing more than I am!

z

[cynthia23]

Well, at least there is lots of lively discussion here! And yet, we are all still staying pretty civil! Thanks for posting the ODC forum "discussion' KathyW, it was an eye opener! Yikes. It was fun to visit, but there's no place like home! Thanks, AlanK, for your kind remarks about me, and thanks, too, to Sven, for your sincere response. I realize, now, my original sarcastic joke about possible rescues was a lousy idea--it just polarized people and worse yet made it hard to hear my basic concern, which is that somebody, SAR or hiker, will get killed on Skyline. (it's okay to throw around black humor with friends at the tram bar but online it doesn't work, I'm learning.) Kevin T is right that online discussions have a tendency to get misunderstood, go too personal and get nasty. There's no use in that. From now on, I will keep the Black Irish in me under severe control and be Ms. Emoticon

But seriously, no doubt Yichus is right we are all more critical of strangers than friends. However, the difference that I see is that the ODC hike was posted in advance, with conditions that alarmed us. Ellen decided at the last minute to hike alone (her friend bailed.) Had she posted on the board "Btw, y'all, I'm planning to hike alone to the summit in the snow, and I'm going to forget to bring my cell phone, too," I think it likely we would have responded negatively. Should we have given her hell afterwards? Maybe so, but I didn't have the heart, cuz I was remembering all the times I had hiked alone near the summit, in the snow, with no cell phone ....

The chief concern I had/have about large ODC style hikes is the horrible possibility of someone being lost or injured or even killed as the result of a hike which just isn't as tightly organized as --in my opinion--it needs to be in order to be safe. I've had so many close calls myself I see it as a very marginal hike. As in, the margin ain't there. The Sierra club has organized large hikes on Skyline and have a good track record. I know the Sierra club style hikes, with sweeps, radios, leaders, sub-units, etc are very slow and tedious for the faster hikers. But that's why the ODC is a great alternative--for small, fast groups of folks who know one another prettty well. The problem is only in trying to "marry' two incompatible hiking styles. This is when chaos and possible danger results.

I think we all can agree that none of us want to see people die or be hurt, that we cherish the deep friendships we've made on the trails, and that we all want to protect our wonderful and majestic mountain. So let's remember that however much we disagree or however annoyed we might get with each other, we're all still on the same trail ....(me, huffing and puffing at the end...)

[tinaballina]

Cynthia, well said.......

[Tim Le]

As someone who does a lot of solo winter hikes (pretty much all of them have been solo), I thought I'd share some precautions that I take:

• Equipment choices must be even more conservative. In the winter on a snowy trail, I always bring an ice axe, crampons and even a helmet if I'm climbing high angle slopes.
• Bring a means to signal a rescue (cell phone, signal mirror, PLB, etc).
• Bring an emergency bivy and survival equipment to be able to spend the night.
• Bring the 10 essentials, an extra layer of clothes and always a light.
• Be careful with your footing. Solid footwork is better than trying to arrest a fall after it has happened. I'm not saying that Ellen was careless but for me, if I'm honest with myself, most of my slips or falls are due to carelessness or moving too fast.
• Watch the weather. If you go out the day before an approaching storm be mindful that the margin of error is now extremely small. You have to be twice as careful with everything (like go/no go decisions, navigation, gear choices, etc.) because you must get off the mountain that same day otherwise an unexpected delay can turn into a disaster. This is extremely important in the winter. This is what killed the Mt. Hood climbers.

Basically, I think that if you hike in steep terrain with full snow coverage then you have to treat this as a mountaineering trip, not a simple hike. Maybe I'm being too conservative, but I've learned that the margin of error when solo is very slim. The most important thing a solo hiker must do is minimize the possibility of a situation from happening in the first place. You can do this through careful planning, being hyper-aware and alert and having the right gear. But then again, sometimes bad things just happen despite your best efforts.

[Yichus]

Hi Cynthia (aka Ms. Emoticon),

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm also learning, by the way.

Cheers.

[Hikin_Jim]

I know others who share my view, that constructive criticism should have been offered, though they didn't want to express it here publicly, fearing personal attacks.

Well, I did hold off on criticism, and I do regard Ellen as a friend. However, I didn't necessarily think there were no things that could be improved upon. I just think that you shouldn't kick someone while they're down. To criticise someone while they're still in the hospital is the height of boorishness.

I also think that by engaging in criticism, one can actually reduce the chances of being heard. A more polite and more effective (IMHO) way is to make suggestions or just casually list out the things that one does to stay safe in the winter.

Also, knowing Ellen, I know she's no dummy. She's a well respected writer on sports nutrition. She doesn't just write stuff off the top of her head; she does research. As someone who is accustomed to studying, I felt no need to criticise. She's a smart woman, and I know darn well that she will reflect a great deal on what happened.

So, you are right that I withheld criticism, but I did it more out of a desire to engage in socially appropriate behavior, and because I felt that there were other, more effective ways to help Ellen. It's amazing how much more people are open to what you have to say when you don't come from the standpoint of criticism.

Anyway, I think we've talked this out enough. Everyone has made some excellent points, of this there can be no doubt.

HJ

[Hikin_Jim]

JIM'S WINTER KIT
-The traditional 10 Essentials*
-Lighter fleece cap
-Heavier fleece Cap
-Gortex over cap
-Fleece neck gaiter
-Fleece gloves
-Backup knit wool gloves
-Gortex overmitts
-Fleece shirt
-Fleece vest
-Down Jacket
-Goretex shell (top and bottom)
-Long Johns (T neck top and a bottom), possibly expedition weight if really cold
-***A change of socks, possibly two changes
-winter weight pants
-3 methods of starting fire (matches, bic lighter, and a Sparklite)
-signal mirror
-whistle (the "11th essential")
-bivvy sack
-Prolite 4 thermarest + Ridgerest (overnight trips)
-Prolite 3 thermarest (for emergency use on day trips)
-***Duct tape
-Crampons and ice axe as needed
-Snowshoes as needed
-Chemical hand warmers (lose your dexterity may = death)
-550 lbs test parachute cord, 50 ft.
-Backup mini lite (around my neck)
-Backup mini compass (around my neck)
-Safety pins
-PLB
-Cellphone
-O.R. water bottle parkas (2)
-NOT a camelbak in below 32F wx
-REI 1 Liter Thermos (in extreme cold)
-REI .5 Liter Thermos (in extreme cold)
-heavy fleece pants (in extreme cold)
-heavy fleece jacket (in extreme cold)
-"shorty" foam pad
-waterproof ground cloth
-snow shovel and sometimes probe, depending on route and conds.

There's probably other stuff, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head. I tend to be a prepardness kind of guy, just based on my own experiences. Let's just say I know a little more about SAR ops than most people. Also Army, Boy Scout, and Sierra Club training has this stuff drilled into my head.

Anyway, thanks to others for posting your gear lists. By all means I'd love to see the gear lists of others.

*The traditional 10 Essentials are:
(nemonic device: many companies love super excellent employees maintaining full knowledge financially.
M - Map
C - Compass
L - Light (flashlight or headlamp with extra batteries and bulb if incandescent)
S - Sunglasses (or glacier goggles). I also include sunscreen and a hat
E - Extra food and water
E - Extra clothing
M - Matches
F - Firestarter (fuel cubes, candle, magnesium, vaseline impregnate cotton balls, Tinder-Kwik, etc.)
K - Knife
F - First Aid Kit