Here we go again?

[sven]

I was not implying that you are a mean person -- I just thought your post had negative connotations. Can you appreciate the difference? The real point of my comment was to show how I used that negative as a positive.

I am real -- not a troll. I hiked Skyline for the 1st time last Saturday. You probably passed me on the trail. I think its great that someone like me can tap into the experiences of Skyline veterans on this board before taking a first step. I knew what I was getting into and I was not dissapointed.

As for the ODC group, the number was not 30 as advertised, but closer to 20 if it matters. More than half were Skyline veterans, so its not like there was a mass influx of lost souls wandering about the mountain. I don't have a good arguement about what a safe or proper number of people should be in a group. There are too many factors, prior experience, comparable experience, conditioning, etc.

The fact that we split in groups based on pace was comforting -- you could hike your own hike without worrying about speeding up or slowing down. There was good communication with several hikers having radios, so I kinda knew who was ahead and behind. It was not every man/woman for themselves -- we looked after each other. I happen to see a difference between "rendering assistance" and "rescue" although one could lead to the other.

At any rate, thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

[kevin trieu]

I'm not sure why I get into online discussions as I think they absolutely pointless. Maybe I've been sitting in my cubical for too long.

In any case, here are a few things that I want to point out. Carlo is a strong fella. I have done the Grand Canyon Rim-Rim-Rim with him in a day. The ODC forum link provided is NOT a discussion. Reading it, you'll see that it is just one man attacking another man on a personal level with on a basis that's not substantial. All this is unprovoked. I might be bias in the statement as I have been out on two C2C trips and many other trips with Verdi in the past. When you have been in many "battles" with a guy, you tend to be on his side. I'm sure some of your will understand this.

This past weekend I went up George Creek in the Sierra with a bunch of folks. The objectives for some of them are twice as difficult as C2C in my opinion. Some of them made the summit at 5pm and had to bivy out for the night at 10k'. I'm sure these types of situation are not "ideal" and is frowned upon if given the opportunity on this board or other. These people are Sierra Club leaders, one ER, which is the highest level you can obtain. I might be wrong.

That ODC "discussion" and many others here are the reasons why I believe online forums are pointless. People getting tired and lost are common. Why it is frowned upon when someone get into a situation that's not "ideal" in your mind?

Hey Cathy, it was nice running into you.

Have fun on the mountains.

[KathyW]

Kevin: It was nice running into you this past weekend along George Creek too - we got temporarily lost a number of times that day.

I know what you mean about too much time sitting at a desk behind a computer with access to the internet.

Kathy

[pdforeme]

pouring gasoline as it were on this...

I spent some time reading the recap on Ellen's rescue... I didn't see a lot of chest pounding about her...that is, anyone, regardless of skills going out alone w/out communication devices.....whether in snow, desert, or even on plain old trails. And yes, i've summitted in the snow, alone, wasn't a great idea (i say only after having read about her accident/rescue).

[Yichus]

Thanks, pdforme, for having the courage to point out the double standard. I can only imagine the outcry--the charges of recklessness, of putting SAR lives in danger--that would have ensued had the incident involved a hiker from, say, the ODC.

I do understand the motivation behind the double standard, however. After all, it is only natural to forgive, as well as to come to defense of, friends for whom we care a great deal, even when they exercise poor judgement--i.e., hiking alone in winter.

[Yichus]

Thanks, pdforme, for having the courage to point out the double standard. I can only imagine the outcry--the charges of recklessness, of putting SAR lives in danger--that would have ensued had the incident involved a hiker from, say, the ODC.

I do understand the motivation behind the double standard in this case, however. After all, it's only natural to forgive, as well as to come to the defense of, friends for whom we care a great deal, even when they exercise poor judgement--e.g., hiking alone in winter.

[AlanK]

I fail to see a double standard. Ellen was never criticized for leading a large group into dangerous territory, abandoning weaker hikers to their own devices, etc. That's because she never did any of those things. She went out alone, had an accident, and very forthrightly and honestly discussed it in great detail right here on these pages.

Now, I am not hammering on the ODC, which I think is a good bunch. But the criticism I've seen is at least understandable. You can disagree with it. Others do and say so right here on these pages. Not everyone sees eye to eye. That's part of why there is a Message Board.

But double standard? Nah!

[Hikin_Jim]

Thanks, pdforme, for having the courage to point out the double standard... ...it's only natural to forgive, as well as to come to the defense of, friends for whom we care a great deal, even when they exercise poor judgement--e.g., hiking alone in winter.

(Emphasis added)

Well, there are degrees of poor judgement. There are an awful lot of soloists including Rheinhold Mesner (who did Everest solo without oxygen). Does Rheinhold Mesner have bad judgement? I'm not so sure that he does.

I personally don't do solos in winter conditions, but I don't automatically assume bad judgement when someone does a solo. I personally enjoy an occasional sojurn in the backcountry; it's very grounding. Yes, there is an increased risk to oneself, but it's up to the individual to make the call whether it is worth it or not. You'll never see me in "The Death Zone" (above 25,000'), but should I conclude that my risk assessment should apply to veteran climbers? Probably not.

On the other hand, self selection on Skyline, well I could see that coming before it started whereas I couldn't with Ellen's (as I recall, I started this thread). I'm not trying to excoriate Verdi or exhonerate Ellen, but there are degrees of misjudgement and I can see why people would react more strongly to a large, self selected group.

However, I'm very pleased that Verdi didn't follow through with his "keep up or be abandoned" part of his write up. That's good judgement.

Just my opinion.

As for me, I always take a cell phone, whistle, signal mirror, bivy sack (winter), etc. Fast and Light in the winter can sometimes lead to (very) slow and dead. Ellen just squeaked buy. A lot of people would not have made it in her circumstances. She's very lucky to be alive, although I must say that she handled things really well once the accident did occur.

On the basis of Ellen's experience, I finally pried open my wallet and made my self buy a PLB. Now I just hope I don't hit my head when I fall and be rendered unconscious, thus rendering the PLB useless, a very good argument indeed for going with at least one other person (your "PLB assistant" ).

If we differ on this matter, I respect your opinion, but I can also see why Verdi might come under stronger criticism.

Anyway, perhaps the best possible thing to happen is for people to look at both of the incidents and to brainstorm about ways to mitigate the risk of recurence. Let us all endeavor to do just that and to exhort one another to better practices. The only bad lesson is the one we don't learn from.

HJ

[Yichus]

Alan,

There wasn't, if I recall correctly, ANY criticism whatsoever of her actions, at least not from members of this board. Is that not indicative of a double standard? Are we not less likely to criticize friends publicly, even when criticism is warranted? Does the fact that she was "honest and forthright" about the experience absolve her from criticism?

As I mentioned, had the incident involved a solo hiker who was not a friend to many on this board, that person would have been severely criticized for not having carried proper winter gear or a cell phone (the latter an unreliable means of communication in the mountains). Again, I do understand the reasons for being reticent to offer criticism in this case.

Nevertheless, I do respect your opinion, Alan, but let's not dismiss the fact that, as flawed human beings, we tend to avoid publicly criticizing those with whom we share a friendship.

[Yichus]

HJ,

I also respect your opinion. You're probably the most fair-minded person on this board, one who is able to appreciate both sides of an issue.

We can disagree agreeably, right?

I know others who share my view, that constructive criticism should have been offered, though they didn't want to express it here publicly, fearing personal attacks.

Virtually every lost or injured hiker discussed on this board has been the subject of criticism for having taken certain actions. Mistakes were made, and they should be commented on, so that, as you state, we can learn from them, thus arming ourselves with the knowledge of what to do--and what not to do--should we find ourselves in a similar situation.