Here we go again?

[cynthia23]

Ok, I admit I'm a grump. But those who know me personally know I'm not mean-spirited--just really tired of WEEKLY Skyline rescues, and seriously concerned about the safety of SAR personnel, some of whom I have met while tagging along on the "crazydude" rescue. Which, really, is more "mean"--gallows humor about dubious mega-hikes, or .... organizing overly large hikes on a dangerous trail without (in my view) a strong enough margin of safety? Every time there is a SAR operation, especially with helicopters, there is a serious risk of loss of life. If I make sick jokes, it's only because I hope to jar people into remembering this grim fact. Believe me, I really do hope this particular hike goes off without a hitch, and probably it will--but I do feel individuals need to be very, very conservative when organizing large group hikes on Skyline. I'll say it again: I do not think it is a good idea to take large groups of people on Skyline whose hiking abilities you don't personally know anything about. I would never do it. It's inherently risky. Having had many close calls on Skyline personally, I have great respect for this great trail, real concern for those who hike it, and a nagging fear for those who have to rescue people off of it ....while on Skyline on Sunday, we passed the signal fire set by the group of Marines ---it was frightening to see the rocky terrain the rescue helicopter had to fly into (at night.) Imagine if one of these SAR people were killed because of a hike one had organized, imagine living with that guilt ... it isn't worth it. Seriously ...

[simonov]

Ok, I admit I'm a grump. But those who know me personally know I'm not mean-spirited--just really tired of WEEKLY Skyline rescues, and seriously concerned about the safety of SAR personnel, some of whom I have met while tagging along on the "crazydude" rescue. Which, really, is more "mean"--gallows humor about dubious mega-hikes, or .... organizing overly large hikes on a dangerous trail without (in my view) a strong enough margin of safety?

Maybe, but as your ranting about the hike continued even after you were assured as to Verdi's previous experiences with these hikes, by myself and others, it certainly took a turn for the mean-spirited, if not deliberately obtuse.

[cynthia23]

Aack. This seems to have turned into something of a tempest, which is not my intent. I assure you, Simonov, I intend no personal insult or dis on your friend Verdi. For all I know, he is indeed the future mayor of Palm Springs. And your loyalty to your friend certainly speaks well of you. May we all have such friends .... But. I do stand by my basic assertion: it's hazardous-to-foolhardy to organize a (very) large hike on Skyline without having personal knowledge of the hiking abilities of the people who are going to hike with you. I do not think this hike is wise without having a very strong structure (i.e. the hyper-organized Sierra Club hikes, which have team leaders, assistants, sweeps, and radios.) Having personally seen so many sick, dehydrated, and confused people on Skyline, I just don't see it as at all unlikely that in a large group of Skyline newbies, at least one person may prove not up to the task. And living here in Palm Springs, we witness up close the seemingly never-ending rescues--watching the helicopters fly over the mountain, etc. Is it really so odd or misanthropic if some of us express strong concern? I also have loyalty to my friends, and some of them are rangers/SAR folks. I don't want to see these people hurt for no good reason.

Here, in a nutshell, is what I (continue to) believe is the correct procedure: 1. If people are interested in doing Skyline, take them on an initial hike to 4,500 feet. If they manage this without any bonking or major problems, then, and only then, take a second trip all the way. Never take anyone up Skyline you haven't hiked with before. 2. Make sure that they are closely supervised, and don't take more people than you can physically keep an eye on. I don't think one person can really supervise more than three or four novice Skyline hikers. Let alone 33. 3. Be ready and willing to turn back if someone proves unable to keep up, and don't leave any stragglers behind, even if they do have a radio. Finally, I would even say that would-be Skyliners ought to spend a day (at least) acclimating to the heat and dryness before they attempt this hike, instead of the "we'll just drive there at two in the morning to save on hotel costs" method, which delivers exhausted, sleep-deprived people from cool coastal climes directly into hot desert climbs ....not a good plan, IMHO.

The point here is that bad as it is to be injured, sick, or dead, it's much worse to be responsible for somebody else being injured, sick, or dead. On Skyline, err on the side of caution. One can always come back and hike it on a better day. As Cy always says "The mountain's not going anywhere!"

And on that note, may we all continue to enjoy it peacefully...

[tomcat_rc]

While ODC is open to anyone - it is really not a group of unknowns. For the most part most members have have hiked with each other on one or more occasions. This would allow for a somewhat "self policing" policy. I would consider a trip like this as an ideal situation for me to go with a leader who is familiar with the trail. As with any other hike I do; I accept responsibility to myself first and foremost. While not yet having done Skyline - I did participate in the Shorty's Well to Telescope hike. This hike represents 11.5k feet of gain with no "bail out" tram - and the hike back down to awaiting caravan is another 7 miles back to vehicle. This trip has been led several times and to the best of my knowledge - also without a single mishap. While there are many members of ODC; I think the "hard core" hikers are as fit and capable - many more so than people you are likely to meet out on the trail. Kevin and Guest who post here are just two examples.

sorry - just my .02c worth - Tom

[ItsPat]

Wow. This thread has exposed a lot about the character of a lot of people on this board.

[AlanK]

Wow. This thread has exposed a lot about the character of a lot of people on this board.

You joined today to tell the world that?

Perry, time for an IP address check.

[ItsPat]

Yes, I believe I meant that as a compliment. There are a lot of good people in this world.

Just my 2 cents.

[AlanK]

There are a lot of good people in this world.

There certainly are. There seem to be a fair number on this board.

[ItsPat]

Yes - I agree. And to answer your original question, I joiined today to applaud that fact.

[Perry]

IP of ItsPat: 207.200.116.204
Sorry. User deleted due to posting history here and other hiking message boards.