Time to "FIX" the Skyline "trail"

[ferrisjrf]

The pic below is from Mt. Washington in NH, and says:

STOP - The area ahead has the worst weather in America. Many have died there from exposure, even in the summer. Turn back if the weather is bad.

http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=171496801/PictureID=3733461731/a=103376502_103376502/t_=103376502

Simpler than the Skyline signage, but not sure if it's really any more effective. I'm not sure that all the signs in the world would do any good...but that's just my two cents.

Jason

[magikwalt]

It probably stops about as many as our current signs do. There is nothing wrong with the signs its just the brains reading them.

[Ken]

First, there is clearly a problem, and clearly wishing it away will not work, or it would have.

Second, this particular path combines the worst of all worlds: easily accessible, the difficulties lie far after one is committed (at least psychologically).

Signs seem to be minimally useful---they are already there, and aren't getting the job done. (The problem is, that when you read the sign, you are already there--you don't have crampons with you, it is already 8am, etc).

I would advocate an educational approach that happens before one is anywhere near the route.

There are ways to approach this, but here is one: a permit is required. However, no quota, and you can get it online. My model is the California Campfire permit, required for fires in the backcountry. The interaction allows for education, a short quiz allows for highlighting the relevant critical issues, the site allows for links to resources that further educate.

Here is the Campfire permit site:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/sequoia/passesp ... index.html

I think education DOES work. Several other posters here are familiar with the effort over on Whitney, after the rash of deaths/accidents a few years back. The community at the Whitney Portal Store website worked up an educational effort, to educate people, PARTICULARLY in the "shoulder' seasons that are so deadly. I'm one of the people who gives talks in SoCal stores on climbing Whitney (next series in April at A16), and one of the important parts of our talks, is directing people to the resources that will educate them on the risks of that mountain.

This effort does NOTHING to the ground, it costs virtually nothing, but it would do a tremendous amount of educating.

I appreciate that it would require the community to work with the managers, which seems eternally distasteful to some, but sometimes, we just need to suck it up.

It would be possible to photo document the difficult areas, along with issues of bailouts, bivies, and areas to avoid. Surely, that info exists and is documentable.

Over at Whitney, we decided to do something. It did not involve signing, moving dirt, or changing paths. There have been no deaths since, and every year there are a lot of posts by people who state they have decided not to go (during the dangerous times), because they now understand the dangers.

A community CAN make a difference, and it doesn't have to use shovels or spray cans.

[asabat]

Interesting idea, Ken, but...

1. Whitney required a permit long before the recent problems, so the permit itself doesn't solve the problem, as you noted. If the sole purpose of a permit is to educate, the folks in Lone Pine would have solved that problem on their own. (Personally, I'm not in favor of that, though, as I could imagine having to get to Lone Pine even earlier to attend a 4 or 8-hour course.)

2. The education that solved the problem happened right on the WPS board itself. No government was involved. We can do that here. We've done it a little already.

A problem with this approach may be that not all prospective Skyline users visit this site. The solution to that would be we all respond constructively to the many other sites we participate in.

[KathyW]

Just my opinion, but spreading the word about the Skyline Route (it's not a recognized trail) by putting on education seminars is only going to encourage more people to head up it.

I'd hate to see Skyline become like Whitney - the times I've been up Skyline it has been pretty peaceful up there - lucky to run into a few people all day - Whitney is beautiful, but it is a zoo.

[Hikin_Jim]

Yeah, there's a fine line between inadvertantly publicizing Skyline and putting out a certain amount of info to keep people safe. As much as I'm in favor of education, Kathy's right that we'd wind up publicizing Skyline if we were to put on seminars. Everybody knows about Whitney; it's the tallest in the 48, and it can't hide. Skyline, despite whatever notoriety it may have, still isn't exactly a household word.

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, but maybe it's good that people have to work for it a bit to find info about Skyline. Intelligent hikers do their homework; they can be helped by what we post. "Other" hikers aren't going to read up on things, aren't going to pay attention to signs, and aren't going to be thinking things through in terms of safety. We just may not be able to help these "others".

Of course putting on generic "Palm Springs hiking" or "desert hiking and peak bagging" seminars could address some of the issues without calling out Skyline.

Just some thoughts.

[Kevin]

... Over at Whitney, we decided to do something. It did not involve signing, moving dirt, or changing paths. There have been no deaths since, and every year there are a lot of posts by people who state they have decided not to go (during the dangerous times), because they now understand the dangers.

A community CAN make a difference, and it doesn't have to use shovels or spray cans.

Ken -

I used to live on the East Coast, and would hike to Whitney yearly as part of a western trip. Now I live in the Eastern Sierra and am able to climb Whitney more frequently. During the past dozen years of so, I've not noticed anything appreciably different. Yes, the permit process has 'evolved' and the toilets are no more, but nothing substantive that I'm aware of.

I too am a huge believer that the best long term solution to problems includes a proactive education program. Could you outline the educational program you're referring to? And is the non SoCal hiker likely to be aware of the program?

[Ken]

I think that several of you missed my point entirely. I am absolutely not advocating seminars or programs on Skyline. In fact, I oppose them.

When I was talking about the Whitney programs, I was doing so only to say that DURING these talks, that were ALREADY happening, the speakers take advantage of the interactions to point the candidates to the WPS website, where the actual educational information is located.

For Skyline, there are no similar interactions with the public. There are no guide books. There are no web sites dedicated to the trail. So, how is the itinerant curious hiker to become educated???????????

If they have to get a permit as I've advocated, which is dirt simple to get, it provides an opportunity for education, just like the campfire permit site allows for education. You don't have to go in, you don't have a quota, there is no administrative overlay, you don't have resources sucked up dealing with it. Simple.

All the other arguments against this, without some other alternative, are for maintaining the status quo....which is fine with me, I don't hike this trail. But if you take that position, you can't grouse about the problem, because you voted for maintaining things as they are!

Kevin, people from far way are likely to see it the information at the Whitney Portal Store website, as the Forest Service routinely points people to it for specific information, because they understand it's value.

When my research group on altitude illness interviewed over 1,000 hikers two summers ago at Whitney Portal, a large percentage had seen the site, and actually spoke of things they altered because of what they'd read. Res ipsa loquitur.
==========================
Here is a list of topic from "Orientation notes for Whitney first timers"
Note that these are just heading links to comprehensive discussions
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This thread was designed to answer many of the questions that have been posted on this bulletin board by people who have not hiked on the Mount Whitney Trail before. It also provides a systematic orientation for people planning their first Mount Whitney trip and provides a good collection of web page links for future reference. (Note: For a collection of links on the North Fork/Mountaineer's Route, go to Mountaineer's Route info links within...). While the subtopics were designed to be read in sequential order, they also can be accessed individually using the table of links below.
----

Before Planning a Hike--Developing a Trip Plan--Getting Ready to Hike

Learn about the Inyo NF Permit Reservation Process
Learn the layout of the main trail
Learn facts (and discern myths) about the "windows"
Learn more about altitude sickness
Pick up a book/video about the trail
Check other web sites
Decide on a good time of the year to hike
Decide whether to day hike or stay overnight
Develop your pre-hike conditioning strategy and set your group limit
Prepare a Main Mount Whitney Trail Lottery Application
Develop your acclimatization plan
Determine if you need campsite reservations at Whitney Portal Campground
Make Travel Plans
Picking an airport
Using bus/train service
Driving from the north
Driving from the south
Driving from the west
Lone Pine Layout
Main Street Stores
Restaurants/Market
Lodging
Whitney Portal Layout
The drive up from Lone Pine
WP Campground
WP Store and Grill
New Interagency Visitors Center/Wilderness Permit Pickup
Finding weather and road reports
Checking snow water content
Hiking Equipment
Trekking Poles
Clothing
Emergency Supplies
Bear Canisters/Other Equip.
Amenity Considerations
Food
Water
Wag Bags
Shower
Cell Phone Coverage
Get acclimated
Plan when to leave
Develop a contingency plan
======================

Here is a list of topics from the section "What can go wrong on Whitney"
All of which are links to extensive discussions on the topics.
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This thread was written to document a number of things that can go wrong on a hike up to Mount Whitney. It was designed to be read in sequence, but the following table provides direct links to specific topics. Each topic has a collection of links that point to other threads on the message board that talk about real-life experiences. The goal is to make people more aware of the hazards associated with hiking to the summit.
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Altitude Sickness/AMS
Dehydration
Environment
Darkness
Hail
Ice/Snow
Lightning
Sunshine
Wind
Group Separation
Injury/Search and Rescue

[Kevin]

Ken -

Thanks for clarifying those points.

When I lived on the East Coast (until 3 years ago) I relied on the FS site for most of the info, as the Whitney Portal site, to the best of knowledge, while in existence, didn't provide much real info. Maybe it was there but I just couldn't access it - that's possible. But, now, as you point out, there lots of good info on the Whitney site. Some FS juridictions (Shasta comes to mind) provide excellent, up-to-date information, but others - well, less so.

[KathyW]

Ken: Just curious, but have you ever hiked the Skyline/C2C? If you haven't done the hike, it might be a good idea to do it sometime so that you can get a better idea what it's like.

There already is a very good site on the Skyline (C2C):

http://www.geocities.com/cactus2clouds/skyline.html

Also, the route is included in several guidebooks.

Kathy