Time to "FIX" the Skyline "trail"

[Hikin_Jim]

Some (including myself) believe individuals should be knowledgable and prepared to find their own way ...

You're absolutely right. They should.

The problem is that they aren't and a) people are getting hurt, b) our SAR guys are put at risk, and c) there's a lot of public funds being expended. As much as I agree with you, I don't think "a", "b", and "c" above are going to go away. The issue therefore is "what do we do about 'a', 'b', and 'c'" rather than "they should".

If the pace of rescues continues to grow, and particularly if something goes very badly (say, a rescue helo crash), there's a very real possibility that the trail may be placed "off limits." I still think public education is an appropriate response as perhaps is an updated sign, but something to help people stay on route that isn't too obtrusive is starting to sound really reasonable given the alternative.

[Cy Kaicener]

At this rate of rescues and "improvements", I can see a Ranger Station at Flat Rock in a few years time Lets hope not! Look whats happened to the Swiss Alps. They dream of the good old days. Closer to home, look whats happening to the Grand Canyon. In the meantime something has to be done to help Search and Rescue.

[Hikin_Jim]

At this rate of rescues and "improvements", I can see a Ranger Station at Flat Rock in a few years time

Hmm, nix on the Ranger Station, but I'd go for one of those drink carts that Cynthia mentioned, especially if they sold lemonade. Mmmm.

Closer to home, look what's happening to the Grand Canyon.

What's happening in the Grand Canyon?

In the meantime something has to be done to help Search and Rescue.

That's kind of the "elephant in the living room," isn't it? The problem that won't go away but we don't want to look at because there's no easy solution.

[AlanK]

I am not opposed to the rattlers, but I would strongly prefer there to be a working espresso cart in operation at Flat Rock. Latte, anyone?

If Mt. Whitney can have a Starbucks in the Smithsonian Hut, Flatrock can have a nice little espresso cart!


Addendum 2/25/08: I received a private message asking where this Starbucks is located. The writer did not think it was on top of Mt. Whitney, but is looks real enough that he thought it might actually exist on some less remote peak somewhere. The photo was originally posted on the Whitney Portal Store Message Board on 3/6/06 by Jeff_M. The fact that an intelligent person thought it was a real Starbucks is a testimony to the quality of the Photoshop work. The photo has re-appeared many times and has been used in Kurt Webberg's presentations. However, since not everyone is in on the original joke, it is only fair to clarify the matter.

[Hikin_Jim]

Good! Good! I can see we're really making progress here! I can see it now: "Wilderness Safety: the Starbucks Way"

Seriously though, if any real efforts get going on new signs or minimally invasive route marking, I'd be up for it in the spring. Sigh. Prefer wild and free, but the problem's not going away and I don't want to see the SAR folks (or anyone else) constantly imperiled due to the latest accident by the unprepared and lacking in good judgement.

Of course now that I've said that I'll probably be the next accident because I forgot my extra water or was just having a brain fog kind of day. I can see it now: I suck the last out of my Camelback, reach into my backpack for a refill bottle, and have the blinding flash, "oh, yeah, maybe I should have grabbed those out of the 'fridge before I left." Doh!

I notice many of the veteran "skylies" are withholding comment. Are we all way off the mark here? Are you getting out the noose and looking for a good branch?

[HikeUp]

Is it any more broken than other places? Aren't there plenty of rescues on Baldy and in the Grand Canyon? Is there a definitive case that supports the theory it is broken? I don't know either way. It may be broken, but I think if you are planning on doing anything then you would have to provide hard data (not anecdotal) to justify it. Don't get me wrong - I support the idea of reducing accidents, rescues etc. - just trying to be pragmatic.

[Cy Kaicener]

Jim - They have a Skywalk in the Grand Canyon and mules.
One of the drinks carts sounds great, but you would need a little hut to go with it.

[guest]

Hi,
I've done the route for 20 yrs.
I have removed (and may continue) to take unsightly crap, signage off the route. Well placed cairns in the trees I have left.
I don't want people to die.
People getting lost is not the main reason for problems, (I have to agree with Hikeup & Hal).

Yes, I helped place the metal sign at 1,700 ft.
Yes, as Igloo builder mentioned, few were stupid enough to attempt the trail in winter (unless they had real mountaineering skills), so we, which was CV Trails Council, Mounted Police & State Park, left if off, now if would be a good idea.
I'm for helping SAR's, but, the more people hike this route, the higher the odds of rescues I think.

IMHO, this board & Perry's C2C website (I've spoken w/ him, & he's a good friend) & other web-info sites is somewhat responsible for the increased usage, even if they educate.

I feel it's important to not over protect people.
Maybe strongly worded signs at the bottom,but, maybe this will make some who didn't know of the route want to do it that shouldn't.

Maybe some SAR's will get fed up w/ rescuing people on this route (& risking their own lives) & quit, then some may die, that may be evolution.

There may be a catch 22 here: Make the route "easier" (to follow, at least), more may do it. What if we sign the route in the trees & even more people need rescue? (Even if you can see reflectors on trees, multi layers of ice & snow on 40 degree slopes on spent legs & being dehydrated is overwhelming).

I'm willing to help keep it from being regulated, (if it's not too late). Maybe a get-together of a few of us, including a ranger & sar person.

ss

[cynthia23]

I agree with SS in that there's a certain catch-22 with posting trail markers or info, in that it may unintentionally lead unprepared people to try hikes they're not fit enough to do. However, by Flat Rock the issue is moot, in that they're already committed to the hike, so I wouldn't be opposed to a few markers in the last two thousand feet. This is the section in which people always get lost and head up the technical chutes. But I also agree with SS that most of the problems don't really come with getting 'lost' per se, rather with people not having the conditioning, training, or equipment to deal with the steep terrain and difficult weather. Often, I think, there is a problem of dehydration and fatigue leading to disorientation in the last stretch, causing people to not pay close attention to the route and to get lost. There's no clear solution for any of that. I agree with Cy and SS that we don't want to make the route a total Disneyland route with huge blazes and handrails! But some markers in the rocky ice chutes in which most people get lost, would not be amiss. The cairns are too similar to the rocky terrain to be useful, unless you are paying careful attention, and as I said, by this point, many people are too fatigued to "see" rocks. A few Metal signs, however ugly, might be the only solution. However, it's not clear if the rangers would permit them. I recall someone posted a metal sign at Flat Rock, and it was removed, I believe by the rangers. Maybe they should reconsider that. Re: Grandmaster P's C2C site--while it has somewhat publicized the trail, it also provides a great deal of warning info. IMO the gushing article in Backpacker Magazine is what caused the majority of these rescues.

[marmot]

there should be elevation signs on c2c, every 1000 feet or so, just like mt. baden powell.