How high can you go?

[greyewolffe]

Good morning!
I'm new to your page so forgive me if I breach any protocols. My girlfriend and I have been here on an extended stay from our home in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. We're both fairly strong four season hikers (as are our two dogs) and are particularly fond of the Fish Creek Falls trail (in case anyone is familiar with it).

We have been hiking the South Lykken Trail mostly for the quick elevation gain at the beginning and have recently heard of the Skyline Trail which seems similar to some of the trails at home in terms of elevation gain and distance. However, at this point we're not really interested in getting too technical. My main question is: At what elevation do you begin to encounter icy inclines? We brought our MSR Lightning snowshoes and Komperdell adjustable poles, so we're set for the snow and moderate ice on relatively flat terrain, not anything requiring crampons and axes. We're basically interested in getting some hard and fast elevation gain before returning home.

A few more questions: How real is the threat of rattlesnakes here? We've been hiking at night with headlamps due to some of the warnings we've read regarding the danger. How sketchy is the Skyline, prior to where it gets technical, for dogs? (Ours hike with us everywhere we've been). How prevalent are scorpions here? (Even though we keep them leashed on hikes, the dogs always manage to nose around under a rock or two), and finally: What is up with the marbles?

Sorry for taking up so much space, but this seems like a fantastic forum and a great place to get some of the information we've needed. Obviously we haven't come across any other hikers late at night on Lykken. Thank you in advance for any information you can pass on.

[Hikin_Jim]

I can't comment on the snow conditions since I haven't been out to the San Jacs since November, but re rattlesnakes:

They are out there. I typically do encounter a few every year, but honestly I think the problem isn't that great. Usually they rattle to ward you off, and if you back off, they'll crawl away. If one is blocking my way and doesn't move on, I will just gently roll (from a distance) some small gravel over the snake's back, and they always move on.

Skyline has a reputation for being a bit more rattle snakey than the average trail, but still, I haven't seen any postings about even one person getting bit here (correct me, others, if I'm wrong). My sense is that the fear factor may be a bit more than the actual conditions on the ground warrant. Definitely want to keep your eyes open, though. Long pants are always an asset and are pretty practical this time of year.

Now for dogs it's a different matter. I'm not a dog owner, so I can't give you too much advice there. Do bear in mind that dogs are not allowed in the designated Wilderness Area.

[greyewolffe]

Good evening Hikin_Jim.

Thank you so much for the info on rattlesnakes. The gravel suggestion is a great tip. At home we are far more likely to run into a bear or a moose than a snake, so somehow a rattlesnake seems scarier. Probably just fear of the unknown.

Since you're from Los Angeles, here's a question about your part of the world. What is the hiking like around LA, specifically the Santa Monica Mountains? Have you done the Mishe Mokwa trail to Mt. Allen (Sandstone Peak)? How do the Santa Monica Mountains compare to the San Jacinto Mountains? What is the best time of year for hiking there?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Best regards, greyewolffe.

[halhiker]

I've never seen a snake on Skyline but maybe I've been lucky. I usually start later than a lot of people (I don't do it in summer) and so maybe they've already scared them off.

Dogs ARE allowed on trails in wilderness areas unless otherwise specified. They are NOT allowed in the backcountry in National Parks, Nature Preserves or most State Parks but you can generally take them with you on Forest Service or BLM lands.

I used to take my dog hiking with me all the time in the San Bernardino National Forest. In fact, she summited San Gorgonio, Tahquitz Peak and Martinez Mountain with me. Sadly, I had to put her down last year and my new dog is not a great hiker. I know a gal who is a summer Ranger out of Idyllwild and she always took her dog with her in the backcountry.

Now, that being said, there are a number of trails in the area where dogs are specifically prohibited due to Bighorn Sheep. These include the trails in the Indian Canyons and most trails in La Quinta, Palm Desert, Palm Springs and Thousand Palms.

And about scorpions: in over twenty years hiking in the desert I have never seen one here. I've gone out and found them using a black light on our old ranch but I've never encountered one on a hike.

[magikwalt]

First the dogs...Murrary Peak is a great trail for quick early morning altitude gain without the scary, rocky descent. No dogs allowed past about 1500ft according to the sign. That means you will miss the best 700ft of the hike.

C2C...Dogs all the way especially if you use the Ramon Rd start. The first 3500ft will get your heart moving and then you have a mile or two of rolling hills leading up to Flat Rock around 6000ft. Snow is probably starting to be found around this area. This might be go, no go turn around spot especially given the conditions of the traverse around 7500ft.

The traverse area is dark, shaded and bound to be icy. Some thin exposures look to have plus 200-300ft smooth slides into boulder areas. Given that the traverse goes across steep gullies/drainages it has multiple areas where the trail thins and is a real fall risk. I wouldn't touch this area right now without crampons, ice axe and a nice shot of whiskey.

For training I prefer going up to the 4000ft area. Its flat, has a nice view and depending on your energy/experience level should be reachable in 2-3 hours of hiking. Those times expect that you reach the rock sign above the picnic tables in under 30 minutes. Adjust accordingly.

Snakes and scorpions aren't really in play this time of year.

[phydeux]

Dogs - though allowed in both federal wilderness areas and state parks while on a leash, they are banned in the Mt San Jacinto State Wilderness area. As for Skyline - If you go all the way to the Palm Springs Tram with dogs, you won't be able to get them down - the Tram prohibits dogs (except guide dogs for the disabled).

Snakes & scorpions - they are out there, but they typically avoid humans if at all possible. In winter they are in a quasi-hibernation mode, and even in the summer months they'll avoid humans. Its hard to find snakes or scorpions above 6000 ft.; the weather's just too cold for them. If you're worried your dogs might have an encounter, don't bring them.

[AlanK]

My son and I have done Skyline 10 times and have encountered rattlesnakes on about 1/3 of the trips. No close encounters, though! We saw this guy on a dark 50 degree rainy day last February. One is advised to be alert, as on most trails in Southern California, but bites are rare and I don't know anyone who loses sleep over the possibility.

[justinjohnsen]

Good evening Hikin_Jim.

Thank you so much for the info on rattlesnakes. The gravel suggestion is a great tip. At home we are far more likely to run into a bear or a moose than a snake, so somehow a rattlesnake seems scarier. Probably just fear of the unknown.

Since you're from Los Angeles, here's a question about your part of the world. What is the hiking like around LA, specifically the Santa Monica Mountains? Have you done the Mishe Mokwa trail to Mt. Allen (Sandstone Peak)? How do the Santa Monica Mountains compare to the San Jacinto Mountains? What is the best time of year for hiking there?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Best regards, greyewolffe.

Hey Grey,

I'd just repeat what others have said, rattlesnakes are no big deal. Just keep aware not to step on one, particularly in rocky/sheltered terrain with poor footing/visibility, and you'll be good. Of the couple dozen I've met over the years, the only one I've seen rattle was provoked by the people with me. All the others I've seen were either lethargic, or moving away at panic speed. I consider myself lucky on hikes where I see them. They're part of a California wilderness experience.

I love Mt Allen, and the trails and peaks around that plateau in the Santa Monicas. But the Santa Monica and San Jacinto Mountains are very different worlds: low elevation coastal scrub and sandstone, compared to arid desert foothills, pine forest, and near-alpine higher elevations.

Enjoy your time here, wherever you spend it.

Justin