Snow Shoes vs. Crampons

[tinaballina]

Basic rule of thumb: snowshoes for flat and fluffy, crampons for steep and icy.

If you are sort of starting out at this, you should get or rent the snowshoes and start out on terrain that is relatively flat and not hard-packed. When you get more expertise then move on/up to steeper, icier terrain and buy crampons (my Black Diamonds have been very satisfactory.) If you are in conditions that demand crampons, you should buy an ice axe as well. Then you should get someone to instruct you in the techniques of self-arrest (can be learned in a few hours.) Start in places where you don't have significant exposure. (i.e. small gentle hills without rocks where a fall will not mean injury.) Start slow, be conservative and safe.

Have fun!

[KathyW]

Be careful on Baldy in the winter - it can be pretty slick out there. What route are you going?

Going up from Manker Flats via the Ski Hut route is the easiest in winter, but it's not an easy hike with snow and ice and very often it goes straight up the bowl from just past the ski hut, so you have to be comfortable with up to 30 degree snow slopes.

The backbone route can be very dangerous in one area along the ridge, so not usually a good idea in the winter.

From what I've seen in the winter, crampons and an axe are more handy on Baldy than snowshoes but there are rare occasions that you'll need snowshoes up there.

Cynthia is correct. If you haven't hiked in winter conditions a snow travel skills class is a good idea.

Also, keep in mind that conditions can change while your out there - when temperatures drop it gets icy and that can happen quick in the mountains. With the melting and freezing that will go on as the temperatures warm up some areas that are soft fluffy snow now will turn to slush and then to ice in the mornings and the evenings or if it just gets cold out.

[cynthia23]

Yes, Tina, I think what we are kind of saying here is that we are concerned about you biting off more than you can safely chew. You say that you have never hiked in the snow. I can't speak to Baldy (I haven't done it) but I would think that if you are a complete novice to snow trekking it really is better to start out in flat, easy terrain and get a feel for how it is to move through snow. (maybe some folks here will have suggestions of good LA areas to start snowshoeing/snowtrekking?) There are so many challenges/unexpected surprises the first few times. For instance, snow moats! When, as a total snow novice, I first started hiking around in the snow, I had NO IDEA that snow could be unevenly packed and that there were holes under the snow. Imagine my surprise the first time I fell into one , up to my hips.... you don't want to add on to these inevitable surprises the dangers of steep or icy terrain. Additionally, hiking in snow, whether in boots, snowshoes, or crampons, is significantly more energy-intensive than regular hiking ... as in ten times harder. If you are breaking trail in deep snow it's an unbelievable cardio challenge; if you add on heading uphill--you will be exhausted much faster than you could even imagine. One time in deep snow on Mt. San Jac I found I had to stop every two steps and take a full minute to breathe.

But I don't mean to be discouraging because snowshoeing/hiking is very, very fun, really beautiful, and incredibly good exercise. Just start slow, easy and safe. And pack a lunch ...

[Perry]

My understanding, from what people have written and making a guess, is that in some places there may be a layer of ice underneath the recent snow.

The Redfeather and MSR snowshoes have sharp cleats that give good traction for occasional icy sections but also enough floatation in deep powder. Black Diamond and I think Grivel (?) make self-arresting poles. Both of those options are really just half-ass versions of crampons and ice axe. They are better than snowshoes that have aluminum cleats and trying to self-arrest with the end of a pole (good luck with that). But in the spring time, 10-pointers and a real ice axe are better, and occasionally there are times in the winter when it rains, freezes, and everything is solid ice.

From Long Valley to San Jacinto Peak, you can hit the Miller Saddle and go up, and probably not need an ice axe or self-arresting poles (I just use snowshoes and regular poles). The east face or going up to the peak saddle between San J and Jean are steeper, so you're at more risk of sliding a long ways. If I were to do the Devil's Backbone on Baldy, I would definitely want something. Probably collapsible poles kept in my backpack, and I would be using an ice axe for that section. Then I would switch to poles on less-dangerous sections.

[tinaballina]

Be careful on Baldy in the winter - it can be pretty slick out there. What route are you going?

Going up from Manker Flats via the Ski Hut route is the easiest in winter, but it's not an easy hike with snow and ice and very often it goes straight up the bowl from just past the ski hut, so you have to be comfortable with up to 30 degree snow slopes.

The backbone route can be very dangerous in one area along the ridge, so not usually a good idea in the winter.

From what I've seen in the winter, crampons and an axe are more handy on Baldy than snowshoes but there are rare occasions that you'll need snowshoes up there.

Cynthia is correct. If you haven't hiked in winter conditions a snow travel skills class is a good idea.

Also, keep in mind that conditions can change while your out there - when temperatures drop it gets icy and that can happen quick in the mountains. With the melting and freezing that will go on as the temperatures warm up some areas that are soft fluffy snow now will turn to slush and then to ice in the mornings and the evenings or if it just gets cold out.

Thanks Kathy....i will be taking the Mankor Flats route. I believe most of it will be powder still, especially with just receiving 3 feet of snow, but i will be prepared for both the fluff and ice.
I appreciate your input and concern very much.
I will let you know how it goes.

[tinaballina]

My understanding, from what people have written and making a guess, is that in some places there may be a layer of ice underneath the recent snow.

The Redfeather and MSR snowshoes have sharp cleats that give good traction for occasional icy sections but also enough floatation in deep powder. Black Diamond and I think Grivel (?) make self-arresting poles. Both of those options are really just half-ass versions of crampons and ice axe. They are better than snowshoes that have aluminum cleats and trying to self-arrest with the end of a pole (good luck with that). But in the spring time, 10-pointers and a real ice axe are better, and occasionally there are times in the winter when it rains, freezes, and everything is solid ice.

From Long Valley to San Jacinto Peak, you can hit the Miller Saddle and go up, and probably not need an ice axe or self-arresting poles (I just use snowshoes and regular poles). The east face or going up to the peak saddle between San J and Jean are steeper, so you're at more risk of sliding a long ways. If I were to do the Devil's Backbone on Baldy, I would definitely want something. Probably collapsible poles kept in my backpack, and I would be using an ice axe for that section. Then I would switch to poles on less-dangerous sections.

Perry,
This is all great information, i am thinking i need will get a pair of black diamonds for my hikes in the months to come for sure.
I was on baldy last Wednesday and there was ice from the hut up, i was not prepared for that so i had to turn around but i was glad i got to see how long the ice sticks around up there. i believe that ice was left over from a storm two weeks previously. either way, i love baldy and won't be able to wait for the end of spring/beginning of summer.

[AlanK]

I like Baldy and climb it a lot, especially in the winter. Under winter conditions, I have sometimes used snowshoes, but I always take crampons and an ice ax. On most trips, they are unused.

However, the approaches to Baldy tend to be steep. If I was interested in getting first time experience with snow travel, there are much better places to go. Nearby Icehouse Canyon is one. Long Valley (San Jacinto area) is another. There are many others in the area.

[Perry]

Glad to be of help. The whippet is collapsible:
http://www.bdel.com/gear/fl_whippet.php
So apparently it may be as good as an ice axe when it's shortened. But I've never used it.

[guest]

I want one of those to use on the cement walkway up to the tram when there's to many tourons!!!

ss

[Perry]

they might not bump into you. at least not twice!