Young Hikers Missing in Joshua Tree Since Thursday [7/27/17]

[cynthia23]

Yes, good point Sean, even if it truly was a 'mercy' killing, they're not legal either.

Zip, I'm surprised to hear you take the hard 'premeditated' murder position--you're usually the optimist!

I honestly don't think it was cold-blooded premeditated murder, because they wandered around all day first, and because the circumstances suggest they were in heat distress (i.e. no water left, lying under a bush with their shorts pulled around their legs) (Although, grimly, that could also be a situation of rape.)

Ric's point that they may have gone off trail to shoot the gun is definitely a possibility--there is a photo in Nguyen's twitter of her shooting a gun at a shooting range in a 'party' type of situation. So part of how Orbeso may have convinced Nguyen to go off with him for this jaunt would be the opportunity to shoot a gun in the desert.

And do drugs. I really do think they are the central explanation for their behavior. I found many accounts of people taking mushrooms and/ or other drugs early in the a.m. before hikes. One guy was talking about how he mixed them in his yogurt. It's a modern thing. It's not like old school drug days where first, we went out for a hike and then, in the evening, to relax you had a party and got high. A lot of these new drugs are basically speed mixed with crazy intense hallucinogens. The people who use them, use them all day. So though the idea seems very bizarre to most of us, I think it's very much in tune with modern drug/youth culture to think they took a mix of drugs early in the a.m. at the start of the hike. Let's not forget the central, known fact that the police found 4 different types of hallucinogens at the AirBnB. They brought all this along for a reason and it would be strange if they didn't use some of these drugs on the hike. That was likely the whole point of the trip.

I wonder if the investigators will attempt to retrace the couple's steps. I hope so because it would surely be helpful. Perhaps, even, if they had gone off trail to shoot the gun, they might find some evidence of that. By the way, apparently at their final location, there were multiple bullet casings scattered about, which Orbeso's father said indicated that Orbeso couldn't bring himself to shoot Nguyen. It might. Or it might indicate that she was running for her life and was trying to dodge his bullets and avoid being 'sympathetically' murdered.

As Wildhorse indicated, it's very odd that the media is placidly accepting this bizarre claim as factual. Their reporting on this case has been uniformly abysmal.

[Wildhorse]

Cynthia, your research is eye-opening and the picture is really disturbing.

If they both were gun-toting drug users, then that story should surely be told in the press, instead of the Romeo kills Juliet story from Dystopia.

[zippetydude]

Thanks for the "optimist" thought Cynthia. The reason I'm so different on this situation is that I can in no way ever picture myself being so high that I would think putting someone I love out of misery would be a good idea. If there were not even one chance in a billion that they would be fine - and I grant you that I've never done any of the substances that they were playing with so maybe his entire thought process was deranged, but I can't see any possible way of getting there except with deliberate (jealousy induced) malice.

I was talking with a friend who is Jewish once, and somehow Mel Gibson came up. If you recall, Mel Gibson went on an anti-Semitic tirade back in 2006. My friend said something interesting: "It's not like he got drunk and suddenly had those feelings. He had to have them beforehand. It's just that he lost the sense to keep them under wraps when he got that intoxicated. If you got really messed up, would it even occur to you to go 3rd Reich on me?"

Um, no, it wouldn't. Point taken. It couldn't. Those thoughts don't exist in my psyche (as they don't in any sane mind) so the likelihood is zero.

So his argument makes sense to me. Orbeso may have kept the feelings under control until he got drugged out of his mind, but he could not IMHO possibly have suddenly decided that shooting her with a high caliber weapon was a kind and gentle way to help her avoid suffering. The "malice aforethought" had to exist before the thought of murdering her could even begin to become a realistic possibility in the here and now.

Picture this - you have kids. Let's say you get higher and drunker than you ever have before. You all go on a hike and get lost. You're paranoid from the drugs. You have terrible judgment because of the excess alcohol. So what do you do? You fire the gun in the air to get found. You run around crazily until you collapse on the ground. You scream for help. Now, tell me exactly what you would not ever do...what would never ever occur to you in a million bazillion years...get my point? It's not even a remote possibility in a sane mind, (not even in a thoroughly drugged sane mind). Men kill in jealousy every day around the world. I think this one just happened to be close to home. Most men do not have this tendency. Most just walk away. But there are defective men. I just googled "Jealous man kills ex" and Google found "About 5,470,000 results (0.52 seconds)" This is a tragedy. It is not a rarity. Sometimes my optimism has to yield to realism.

z

[cynthia23]

You put that so eloquently Zip. That's a sad statistic you cited.

I wonder, actually, if there will be any real investigation now. Wildhorse, you mentioned you thought the FBI would investigate--I'm curious to know if that will happen. Since no one is left alive, i.e. no one to prosecute, they may not do much of an investigation, and there may be little to investigate anyway. I read that toxicology exams for drugs can't be done with bodies this old, so discovering whether they were under the influence doesn't seem possible. They might find drugs in their clothes or backpacks. Other than by reviewing the plane search records, it seems unlikely they'll be able to determine what day, exactly, the couple died, which could shed light on whether there was any possible validity to the 'desperate mercy killing theory'. The family of the girl does not seem inclined to blame Orbeso, so there is little motivation from them to further investigate. It seems like both families would prefer to believe it was all just a terrible accident, and who can blame them? The only party I can think of who might push for a real investigation might be the new boyfriend, the one she called at 6 a.m., but he is likely a very young man and there's no sign he's going to speak out. It's possible the investigators will try to track down whoever sold Orbeso those drugs, but that would hardly shed light on what happened. It may be there will never be clear answers on the murder/suicides themselves.

But there are still practical questions that need to be reviewed about the SAR process, in particular the issues of the dangerously misleading pings.

[Wildhorse]

I googled sympathetic murder. About twenty years ago a father killed his daughter. He said that he did it to end her suffering from cerebral palsy. It happened in Canada. A couple of judges bought it, but he ended up in prison eventually after a Supreme Court ruling.

The case we are discussing seems much less convincing than the Canada story. The whole case sounds sordid to me, including the press coverage and the reactions of those they interviewed.

This is like a book I wish I never read.

[Ed]

I love learning new things. I ordered The Devil's Highway book recommended by OtherHand. Thanks to Cynthia, I now know that a mushroom trip lasts six hours. Also thanks to Cynthia, I now know what Checkhov's Gun is. Checked with my wife, she knew what it was, another failure on her part to properly educate me. Now that is a principle often violated in mysteries today, where they love to mislead us about who is guilty, until the very end.

I have my views, which are not complete certainty, but are fairly strong, given what we know. I am afraid there may be no resolution. Murder-suicides are surely a practical resource allocation problem for law enforcement. If it was a murder-suicide, further study is not going to lead to a perpetrator being identified, apprehended and convicted. The perpetrator has already taken care of that.

[Sean]

Those who insist on imagining the worst of Joseph should consider the evidence more closely. Rachel's uncle, Son, said that she originally planned a group hike for her birthday, but others could not make it. Also, the car at the trailhead was hers, not Joseph's. Assuming that Joseph planned this outing ignores the evidence. Furthermore, it had been two years since she and Joseph had briefly dated. That's a long time to maintain a murderous jealousy for which, by the way, there is absolutely no evidence. Either they were still secretly romantic, or they had settled nicely into platonic friendship, I think. Also, Rachel was found with her shirt wrapped around her head and Joseph's shirt covering her legs. Given their location, authorities think she probably took a fall and hit her head. This evidence suggests that Joseph tried to care for her, not destroy her in some drug-crazed, jealous frenzy.

You have proved that you can Google phrases on the Internet. I urge you to also prove that you can look at the evidence in this case.

[Ed]

You make some good points, Sean. But it was a murder-suicide, and I think the evidence on motivation is weak enough to allow room for the various opinions expressed here. Including yours.

[cynthia23]

Had they been lost in, say, Alaska, and endured weeks of starvation and injury with no hope of rescue, then a 'sympathetic' murder-suicide would make sense. But that's not the evidence. A short time span that elapsed between their getting lost, and the start of rescue efforts, and they were relatively close to civilization. They had every reason to believe they'd be rescued, or at least hope. No rational person would commit murder--suicide under these circumstances. I mean, what was the rush??! Because the planes began overflying the next day, it strongly suggests that he killed her the very first day they were lost! Hence, we have to assume that for some reason Orbeso wasn't rational--either because of drugs, and/or some underlying bad feelings toward Rachel--and, perhaps, some kind of derangement brought on by heat stress. Whatever mental process he was going through, the central fact is it ended with him shooting her and then himself, which I think we all agree was a very bad decision.

Yes, I fear you're exactly right about a truncated investigation, Ed. With very limited resources, investigators have to triage what's most pressing. It's too bad, though, if that's what they do here, because a careful investigation might shine a public light on two troubling issues--young women and dating violence (apparently a growing problem) and drug use in the national parks.

I agree with you that one small positive here is the chance to learn about so many different things from different people. I'm not exactly a fan of the Internet age--I do think it's degraded our attention spans--but on the other hand, I've also learned about so many issues and facts it previously would have taken a great deal of time to research.

[Sean]

A short time span that elapsed between their getting lost, and the start of rescue efforts,

1.5 days is not a short time span in midsummer desert conditions.

and they were relatively close to civilization.

Two miles is a long way if you're lost and incapacitated.

They had every reason to believe they'd be rescued, or at least hope.

Why? It took SAR three months to locate their bodies two miles from the car.

No rational person would commit murder--suicide under these circumstances. I mean, what was the rush??!

Have you ever been severely dehydrated? Eventually you will lose sensation in your limbs, and you will not have the ability to pull the trigger anymore. You have to do it when you can, or else suffer unimaginable agony while essentially paralyzed from exhaustion.