Hiking C2C soon?

[Robert Hunt]

I meant that reply to show Wildhorse makes some good points.

[Wildhorse]

While we are waiting for any information we might discover about how many rescues happen on the Skyline, I offer this anecdote for amusement.

A fellow who works outside everyday in Palm Springs, hard work, even on the hottest days, pointed to the mountain where it is traversed by the Skyline trail and said to me, "There's evil up there. Every day I see the helicopters hauling away the dead bodies."

So much of what we see depends on what we believe.

Robert, I am hoping that you may respond to the newspaper reporter, Nathan. Whether or not you have ever climbed the Skyline in summer, your Santa Rosa traverse surely signifies that you understand the importance of such trips.

At Cowles Mountain in San Diego, rescues are also frequent, in spite of the relatively mild weather and much easier hike. Broken bones and other injuries add to the toll charged by the heat of the sun, even in sight of the ocean. I read that the rescues in 2013 totaled about 25. I don't know whether that rate is accurate or typical. I do see helicopters flying frequently, and I see them land and take off from a place on the mountain once considered sacred by people who lived nearby long ago.

I hike to the top of Cowles frequently. I have no death wish, for sure, but when I have to go, it would be a fine place to go. Perhaps I will be called a fool for making the fatal hike. Oh well.

[zippetydude]

Please, please don't make closure of any open space that might present inherent danger an 'obvious first step'. Just my simplistic two cents in a very complex topic discussion.


Yes. I prefer the phrasing "Trail closure should be restricted to a last ditch effort when every other possible remedy has been thoroughly thought out, carefully and repeatedly tried, and has still failed. But not a moment before."

z

[Hikin_Jim]

"Trail closure should be restricted to a last ditch effort when every other possible remedy has been thoroughly thought out, carefully and repeatedly tried, and has still failed. But not a moment before."

Here, here.

HJ

[guest]

Well, Now's the time to sound off with you suggestions to possibly not have a seasonal closure.

This message board hasn't curbed the amount of rescues from what I can tell. Sure, one can argue the point that way more folks are attempting Skyline, (many successfully), than just a few years ago, but the fact remains, rescues are up, especially this time of year, (it was close to 100F before 10am today).

If many don't want a seasonal closure, then we need alternatives.
Someone has to pay the high cost of these rescues, and SAR's teams are being asked to conduct dangerous, (many unnecessary) missions.
If you don't want a seasonally closure, are you willing to help, (go find them, help them, take time off work & away from family), buy all the gear, or, help pay for the rescue?
Maybe a permit process, or posting a "bond", if one attempts this in adverse conditions? Just throwing ideas out there.

Ellen's rescue is an example: she's very experienced, and just happen to take a slippery fall, way up high on the mt., resulting in her inability to get off the mt. on her own. Sar's was busy plucking some Marines off Skyline, (there were actually off trail in snow & ice), if my memory serves me correctly, which meant no resources were available to get her before the brunt of the storm hit.

Most of us don't want to see trails restricted, but something needs to change here, there's just too many folks today doing stupid, irresponsible acts, (not all, many just have too many little things add up to become dangerous, and possibly life-threatening).
The attitude of attempting a tough challenge knowing one can always just call for help, has contributed to much of the pickle this trail is now in.

ss

[Hikin_Jim]

We could always install cell phone jamming devices along the route...

HJ

[Wildhorse]

Hiking Jim - I think your facetious suggestion identifies a major reason that so many people now hike Skyline and get into trouble. A cell phone, with ready rescue, makes the trip seem something like bungee jumping to those who are not really competent to make the hike and are not fully aware of its dangers. This is bound to frustrate rescue workers, like Guest.

Population growth threatens wilderness in many ways, as does technology that opens up the wilderness to that growing population as much as roads do.

As a lover of wilderness, I would like to see the tram removed. It would greatly decrease the destruction of the wilderness (and probably significantly reduce the use of Skyline.) I realize this idea has no chance of being realized. I mention this only to illustrate how access to wilderness causes harm to the wilderness. Money always defeats wilderness, and the tram is money, and much easier easier access than even a bungee jump into a fragile wild place. Evidence shows that people don't much use wilderness when it is hard to get to. As we all know, even a short drive on a dirt road for trail access, for example, significantly reduces trail use.

A bungee jump is not a sport. It is game. As Hemingway has been quoted, "There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering. All the rest are merely games." That was before the tram and cell phones. Skyline, for so many it seems, has become a mere game. It is a pity. Mountaineering, like wilderness, is worth preserving, is worth knowing on its own terms.

BTW, I prefer hiking without a phone. One cannot really know wilderness with a phone in one's pocket.

[Ed]

As a lover of wilderness, I would like to see the tram removed.

The Sierra Club waged a losing battle against the tram. Interestingly, the Sierra Club placed a lot of weight on financial projections, which it claims proved to be much more accurate than those of the tram proponents.

Fortunately, the Club won its battle against turning the north side of San Gorgonio into a ski area. Though barely, according to John Robinson. If it had not won that battle, the north side of San Gorgonio would be covered with ski lifts and runs, access roads, lodges and cabins, etc., rather than being the wilderness hiking area we know and love today.

Both battles are described in A Brief History of the Angeles Chapter,

https://angeles.sierraclub.org/about_us/chapter_history/brief_history_1911_1986

[Hikin_Jim]

I would like to see the tram removed.

Well, one earthquake, and that's that. I doubt it would be rebuilt.

And removal of the tram would solve the C2C/Skyline issue. With no easy way down, a lot fewer people will go. Only idiots like me would dream of doing it as a backpacking trip and exit in Idyllwild (or elsewhere to the west).

Barring that, which I would have mixed feelings about, I don't see an easy answer. More signage might help, particularly if it doesn't have that credibility destroying phrase "loose rocks and dirt" on it. Any sign that warns me about loose rocks and dirt is obviously a sign I don't need to take seriously. Loose rocks and dirt are a normal part of every hike.

Closures "for your own good" are distasteful to me as are fines of the same nature. I dislike "nanny state" laws/rules/regs intensely. But it does happen. Look at Eaton Canyon in the Altadena area which has seen a lot of rescues. It is now closed.

Declaring a "no rescue zone" might help, but I can't imagine being the dispatcher who has to say "no, we won't help you; it's time for you to die" when receiving a distress call. I don't think it's going to happen.

I also dislike permits, but a permit for the summer season (say Memorial Day - Labor Day or something like that) would be preferable to an outright closure.

Of course the impending transfer of the land may solve all of this and render our discussion academic. The tribe may decide to have an outright closure in an effort to avoid liability lawsuits OR they could start charging as with the Indian Canyons.

HJ

[cynthia23]

'the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and hoping for different results." Warning signs, this board, etc, have not made the situation better, and quite likely, by publicizing the trail, have made it worse. As Guest points out, rescues don't just involve one lonely individual making some heroic existential choice to 'risk all' but rather drag along a group of SAR folks to make dangerous and expensive rescues. Given that, and the fact that nobody really NEEDS to do a summer Skyline, a seasonal closure is really the only solution left, and/or permits. This is hardly jackbooted government thugs in black helicopters coming to take away our hiking freedoms; it's the government saying they can't afford to fly those black helicopters in to rescue every nitwit who pointlessly attempts to climb Skyline in summer.

Ken, I love your story of the guy ominously talking about the mountain. Spooky!