Another idiot on Skyline!!!

[backpackpack]

Wow! I'm surprised we see them so differently! backpackpack, I hope you didn't think my sand castle analogy meant to say I thought I was right and you were wrong. I was just saying how I feel when I see these stone structure things. I'm actually quite fascinated that some people dislike them so much. halhiker has always expressed his dislike of any type of marking, but I thought that was probably just his personal sentiment. Seems quite a number of people share that feeling. Interesting.

z

Oh no I know, I was just making a joke that was only funny to me haha, it is all in fun. The little rock art balance things aren't really that big of a deal, but I do find it impressive that people can balance things so precariously. I am not taking this personally, we all love nature, hiking, etc. and that is great!

[Sally]

Although I have never constructed a cairn myself, they don't annoy me much. It's florescent orange spray paint and hot pink duct tape and that "trail marking ribbon" that drive me nuts. There is a route that my little group does often and it has cairns in places where the trail is obvious, but the one place where we screw up a lot has cairns that indicate that those guys are screwed up too!

Zip, once again, I nominate you as the ambassador of peace to a world of folks that get hot under the collar over the little stuff.

BTW, when Ellen and our friends and I were in Europe last summer we found a knife-edge ridge with bazillions of cairns, and it was obvious that it was a group effort. It was like people left a cairn instead of signing a summit log. I thought it was super cool as there was plenty of un-cairned terrain to enjoy. I have several pics which I will post later, but I have to go to bed now since I am getting up for an alpine start for our hike tomorrow.

Hey old 'n slow, if not for those painted markers in Europe, we would still be wandering the boulder and scree fields trying to find the next refuge! Those were very much appreciated by us, but if there are forums in Europe they probably scorn them as markers for those dumb American tourists to follow.

[Sally]

A Picture of cairn art In the Alps:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1009477359 ... 9605437282

[backpackpack]

A Picture of cairn art In the Alps:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1009477359 ... 9605437282

It would be so fun to kick all of those over, my boots tickle with anticipation just thinking about it

Not really, I am just kidding. Those ones don't seem out of place. That looks like a really nice trip though, I would love to go some day.

[halhiker]

One of the things I love about hiking is the adventure of discovering something new, a new place, a new route or an old and ancient Indian trail. To me, someone leaving a cairn on a non-maintained route or trail robs the next person coming that way of the thrill of that feeling of discovery. They may not be the only person to ever go that way but they may feel like it because they discovered it themselves. To rob someone of that experience is, to me, an act of arrogance and selfishness. It also robs the next person the possibility of learning how to find their own way in the wilderness. If you build it, I will knock it down.

[zippetydude]

backpackpack: I actually took your post as the friendly humor that it was, but just thought I'd check. Discussions online and through texting sometimes end up with the wrong message being conveyed, so i was just making sure. Funny thing though, there is a certain joy in jumping on a sandcastle, or knocking down a tall structure of any sort, or starting the first domino. It's just fun to get a reaction sometimes.

Hi halhiker. Long time no see. BTW, before my first trip to the slot canyons I read a bunch of write ups, including yours. You did a lot of exploring during that Hike Every Day year! Back to the subject at hand, I think your description this time has made it possible for me to understand a little, if not all, of your antipathy towards the cairns. When I was on one of my many ill-fated attempts up to Onion Rock, I was miles from anywhere and wondering if anyone had wandered through that particular place. As I explored the area, I found that (to stick to the theme of this thread) some idiot had left a beer can in the seemingly pristine area that I was exploring. It did kind of take away from the adventure of the moment. A cairn might have as well, although the real irritation I found is that some jerk would go that far up into the wilderness and then have no better sense than to leave litter lying around.

HI Sally! Thank you for your kind words. I'm probably not as nice as you think! It's just that I almost always enjoy the people I meet out in the wilderness. They sometimes come across a little less enjoyable online, probably only due to the limitations of this type of communication, so I give them the benefit of the doubt. However, there are a few people on other boards, like the one who wears his cranky-panties all the time over on the San G board, that bring out another side of me. I'm not sure a real ambassador is supposed to be as, um, direct (shall we say) as I am in those situations.

For those who like 'em, there are some really amazing pictures of fancy balancing online just a quick google search away. For those who love to knock 'em down, you can look 'em up to and just dream of toppling 'em!

z

[Sally]

Backpack, you just gave me the first good laugh of the day. If you go over the Alps and kick all those cairns over, then I would have a good excuse to get a ticket to go back over there and put all those cairns back up! And I would even add a few extra for good measure!

[OldnSlow]

I wasn't putting down the red dots, without them I'd still be scrambling around the Tegernsee region of Bavaria. Super helpful and placed in just the right spot to be seen but not overly garish.

Wait, still being there wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing!

[Rick F]

IMHO,

I share the opinion that is aligned with leave no trace and that people should not leave ducks or cairns. But if I see a cairn in some remote area of the backcountry I can't help but wonder if someone is up ahead and built it to find their way back. Maybe they'll take the cairn down and restore the appearance on their way back? I don't want to be responsible for someone gettting lost, stranded, and needing SAR. So I don't build cairns but I also don't knock them down.

It seems like the topic of this thread got derailed to an ethical discussion about cairns for cross country routes causing use trails and degrading the natural surrondings. But Skyline is already an established use trail.

I took the original post to be more on the subject of voluntary trail maintence on Skyline. Although Skyline is a somewhat regurlarly traveled trail I don't believe its maintained by the Forest Service or the State Parks. So the way I see it, placing some rocks to outline the trail will prevent or at least reduce the creation of a maze of detours and shortcuts.

[Hikin_Jim]

Skyline is already an established use trail.

For what it's worth, I believe Skyline is a constructed trail not a use trail. The Works Progress Administration/Civilian Conservation Corps during the great depression improved a previously existing (if my memory serves me here). You are correct that no public agency maintains the trail today (that I am aware of).

My take is this: If cairns help preserve an area, I'm generally for them. If cairns serve only to to confuse and clutter, then I am against them.

Case in point of preservation:
When I first started taking the Sid Davis Route some years ago, there really wasn't a clear trail. There were "braids" branching out here and there, cutting all over. The route has now consolidated into something that is now (in many stretches) every bit as much of a trail as any official trail on the mountain. I'm glad all the branches are now more consolidated, and if a couple of "ducks" (small cairns basically) strategically placed help prevent little branch trails going all over the place, then I'm for them.

Case in point of confuse and clutter:
One time, coming down from Marion Mountain, going west toward Wellmans Cienenga, I saw cairns all over heck and back. There was neither rhyme nor reason to them. God only knows what they marked, and they appeared to have been set by different persons at different times marking their own personal routes. THESE CAIRNS HAVE NO PLACE ON THE MOUNTAIN. Heck, if Hal wants to kick those down, I'd join him. What visual clutter! It's really de-wildernessification. Yes, I know that's not really a word, but by that I mean that a wilderness is hardly a wilderness if there are sign posts every 10 feet. Yes, I know it's not 1749. Yes, I know I'm not the first Caucasian to ever tread foot in the San Jacs, but for crying out loud I don't need modernity to be rubbed in my face. I'd at least like a wilderness area to appear, well, wildernessy.

HJ