Yet another rescue of Skyline

[Yichus]

My apologies. I was unaware that constructive criticism subsumes the ad hominem.

[BlueSky]

The relevant discussion on the ODC message board, as referenced in earlier posts in this thread, has since been deleted.

[Hikin_Jim]

I've been away for a while, so it's interesting to me to return to see some of the more recent posts. I've culled out a few things that seem helpful for leading a trip:

1. Don't open up a very hard or extreme hike to all comers.
2. Have the courage to say "no" to people that you're not sure that they are capable.
3. Have the courage to say "you need to turn back now." (I paid the price once in Zion NP of having 3 friends spend an unplanned night out when I didn't insist they go back when they clearly couldn't do the hike through the Narrows.)
4. Keep track of your people.
a) Stop at junctions and let people catch up.
b) In general, keep people in sight -- don't get too spread out.
c) With larger groups, it's best to have a "sweep" (preferrably with a radio).

With regard to responsibility, I think it's a "both and" situation. I think there's appropriate repsonsibilities for both the coordinator/leader and the participant. Whenever I go on a hike, I essentially have to certify to the leader that I'm physically capable of doing what the hike entails and that I'm properly equipped and prepared. As a leader, I have the obligation to describe the hike accurately, provide navigation/route finding, keep the group together, and to provide aid if needed. I also have the obligation to tell people to turn back early on if they can't do a hike. To me, there's a "point of no return" where I can no longer turn people back safely and must stay with them and get them out safely even if that means turning everyone around and going back to the trailhead (although, on Skyline, turning around may not be the best option). I wish that, when I was on that hike through the Narrows in Zion NP, I had said "you must turn back now" and if they had still persisted, turned the whole group around. For me, it would be the worst feeling on earth to lead someone into great harm or to their death.

[cynthia23]

Back from Tuolumne, and I see that it's more of the same craziness ... I agree utterly with Guest ..this event may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back, as far as the Rangers go. I would not be surprised to see closure of some sort imposed on this route, heavy fines, etc. I don't know how much responsibility the ODC leader had for this fiasco (IMHO he screwed up big time, first of all in even planning this hike,) but I am also perturbed by Erik's cavalier tone in regards to his own rescue and the "fun" of being helicoptered away. The proper tone to take after any rescue situation--whether or not it was your "fault" or you "needed" to be rescued--is humility for the risk others took to help you, and an earnest self-searching to understand how one might have contributed to the dangerous situation.

I also think they (the group) have not fully digested how potentially perilous the situation was. I know that on the one climb in which I was truly in mortal peril (it was not on Skyline) I did not comprehend until many months later that I had been close to death or injury. On Skyline, the more you do it, the more you understand how dangerous it is. I look back (now) in horror on certain things I blithely did. When I first started doing Skyline I thought, like Donnie, that it was "thrilling" to risk doing it in summer. Now I see how morally wrong that point of view is---a risk has to be evaluated in regards to OTHER people, not just one's own enjoyment of an adrenalin rush. I have met some of the SAR people and they don't deserve to be put in mortal peril because of my ego enjoyment of "bagging C2C in July." It is dangerous to fly helicopters close to mountains. Why should a helicopter pilot be killed and his kids orphaned because I wanted the 'challenge" of Skyline in July? When I could have just as easily waited until October? Plainly: this hike should NEVER have been scheduled. (as I believe I posted when it was first mentioned on this board!) Risks have to be evaluated against their benefit: are they helping anyone? If you want a "thrill", research Ebola virus, or go feed orphans in Darfur! If you insist on doing C2C in July anyway, then, in all integrity, don't carry a cell phone, so you can't call SAR! Don't put others at risk for one's own ego ride. I am frustrated by all this macho silliness and the lack of real wilderness spirit. The Freedom of the Hills can be found on a grassy mound ten feet high, if you have the eyes to see. And some people will climb Everest and still never be true mountaineers. At its best mountaineering is about opening ourselves to the wilderness and others and letting go of our petty preoccupations with status, achievement, and ego.

But forget all the philosophy. Ah heck, it is so damn simple: NO NEWBIES DOING SKYLINE IN SUMMER OR WINTER!!! First timers=April/May, or October/November!

And the other bottom line? Start charging for SAR rescues, pronto. No more free (taxpayer-paid-for) helicopter rides. You wanna climb Skyline in July? Show me the money!

[zippetydude]

Tuolumne! That's maybe my favorite place in the world. I'm heading up there next week, hopefully for a couple of weeks.

What trails did you do? I've done quite a few of them, but I'm always looking for recommendations for new adventures.

Hope you had a blast.

(As usual, I agree with you on the main theme of this thread, but I'm about out of steam on it.)


z

[magikwalt]

A new wrinkle just popped up today on the legal front to anyone tossing out a liability release form as their defense. As with most cases you can't release gross negligence. Most jurys tend to believe someone in charge did something wrong in cases of major injury or death.


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... ome-center

If someone makes money in the recreation business and uses a release to hold themselves harmless its just become the new bullseye.

[Cy Kaicener]

Here is a rescue from last July that some of you might remember
http://www.rmru.org/missions/2006/2006-020.html
This rescue was dangerous
http://home.flash.net/~cfoster2/climbin ... Creek.html
http://rmru.org/2000-017.htm

[Hikin_Jim]

I kind of wondered about that whole waiver thing. I think the folks who run ODC are dreaming if they think a waiver will get them off. If someone is seriously hurt, they'll get their butts sued off. This is what happened to the Sierra Club. The Sierra Club, who led the way in climbing during climbing's infancy, now will not sponsor anything above class 3, and even class three trips are tightly regulated.

I hope nothing happens to ODC. ODC is kind of a neat concept -- meet up on the web and do some hiking* -- so I wish them well. But by their collecting money and running a commercial operation they incur liability irrespective of any waiver.

*of course they could just log on to this forum

[Perry]

A friend of mine paid her membership fee for ODC (I had recommended joining), but when she tried to sign up for group hikes, they were full. Maybe she was just unlucky. I don't know if that's normal or unusual.

[halhiker]

Even with this ruling it will be very hard for anyone to win a case where a waiver is signed and an ACCIDENT happens. All a defendant has to show is that reasonable precautions were taken and there goes your gross negligence argument.

Even in this specific case the girls parents did not win anything but the right to have a trial. They still have to prove GROSS negligence in court and looking at the basic facts in this case, I don't see how they can. It's sad that their kid drowned but it appears that the city took reasonable efforts to prevent it from happening.

Maybe my connections are limited but I don't know anyone personally who has ever sued and won in a case of this nature. To do so you'd have to have really deep pockets and a lot of free time. Also, it'd have to be a major issue like death or disability to even make a case worth while.

I don't see this ruling changing much in the recreational landscape one way or another.

But then I quit leading hikes up Skyline 15 years ago.