Oh what the hell...

[Zé]

tell us how you really feel Steve!

[tinaballina]

yesterday, after wondering what happened to L.A. Dave and Scott (?names),and the incredible amount of pain and work I have seen people go through on this route, someone mentioned to me that maybe we have been making snowcreek look too easy by doing it repeatedly weekend after weekend. It looks like Dave and Scott didnt even get through the approach.....anybody that is thinking this is an easy route needs to do more fucking homework. Don't just look at some pictures. Please.

Sorry to be so blunt everyone, but this is very real...it is EXTREMELY hard.

Fernando and I have issues.

You guys have issues...REALLY? LOL

Honestly, i had to go back to finally top out at the peak. The whole way up i was wondering why i was doing it again so soon. Hands down the approach drains you to the point beyond exhaustion. We have our own reasons, enough said.

[zippetydude]

Hi Steve. To address your comment with no silly humor, it does seem reasonable to think that hearing someone can do something a couple times in a weekend does make it seem possible to do it at least once.

When I'm in the gym, if a guy about my size can lift a certain amount, wouldn't you think I could at least lift half that much?

Well, it ain't always so. I've seen guys do reps as they deadlift over 600 lbs. So, I cut it in half and try it. My body says, "Have you lost your mind?" and the bar does not move.

I hear that some guys can do a pull up with one hand. So I try it. I hang by one hand on the bar and pull myself up as hard as I can. I can't even get enough lift to bend my elbow! It's kind of a strange feeling. I just hang there like a side of beef.

Anyway, I see the point, but I maintain that the internet postings should merely reflect the truth, and if the rangers or DWA are concerned about people's safety or water contamination, working together to request our cooperation and giving us a reason to build a relationship will be their greatest tools. And, even though I find the route terrifying and think that there's a very real chance that someone will probably come to an untimely end, I still feel that each adult has the right to choose his/her own risk level and give it a shot. You don't see SAR complaining about having to rescue, even though their lives are stake as well.

In short, yes, Steve, they should do their own homework, but even if they fail to do so, the responsibility comes back on their own shoulders and no one elses. If someone were to be injured or killed, the DWA didn't cause that. Neither did the rangers. And especially, neither did one of your posts. Free, open informaton is the basis of a free society.

The real irony here is that this should really be a bunch of like minded people working together as a team - loyal to each other and at times compromising their own specific agenda just a bit to make sure all parties come out ahead in the end.

Sorry if I rambled on. I see no bad guys here, just a couple of foolish decisions that were based on incorrect assumptions. What if a friendly pow-wow were held, and everybody brought beer and chips instead of arguments? We might find a solution, or new friends, or both.

Just a thought.

z

[skunkboy]

zippetydude wrote:

The real irony here is that this should really be a bunch of like minded people working together as a team - loyal to each other and at times compromising their own specific agenda just a bit to make sure all parties come out ahead in the end.

Sorry if I rambled on. I see no bad guys here, just a couple of foolish decisions that were based on incorrect assumptions. What if a friendly pow-wow were held, and everybody brought beer and chips instead of arguments? We might find a solution, or new friends, or both.

Just a thought.

z

Well said Z. Keeping in mind, that it's almost Cinco de Mayo, I'll bring the guacamole and Coronas.

Skunk

[skunkboy]

I know you guys have probably already read it, but heres an article by Ruth Dyar from the June 1939 Desert magazine. She writes about climbing Snow Creek in the winter, and her article starts on page 12. It is very cool.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2095123/19390 ... -1939-June

Maybe we should start thinking of emulating Ruth and instead of banzaiing it all in one day, maybe we could start making a two day climb out of it. Especially with the longer legal route, which makes an epic day, even more epic. It might be the safer way to go with less strong teams.


Sincerely

Skunk

[KathyW]

Zip: Thanks for your thoughts and comments - you always tend to see the bigger picture and it is appreciated.

Kathy

[Hikin_Jim]

... I find the route terrifying and think that there's a very real chance that someone will probably come to an untimely end ...

Hi, Zip,

Thanks for all your thoughts, and in particular the snippet above. Let me just say that I'm a Sierra Club leader, and I've seen a lot of different hikers and climbers over the last 20 years of my association with the club. I'm not an "expert," but I think I've got a reasonable basis for saying that the people who are posting here are hard-core, experienced people who can hike and climb at an exceptional level. For anyone reading these posts, really think twice about the danger level and the level of not just conditioning but athleticism involved.

Even if you are very, very skilled and highly athletic, avalanches are no respecter of persons, neither are rockfall, loose handholds, etc. Plainly stated, death is a very real possibility on something like Snow Creek. Every outing is a bit of a spin of the roulette wheel.

Most climbers intuitively know this, so pardon my playing "mother hen" here, but just don't get lulled into thinking this is a pretty routine climb just because guys like Steve make it look easy. (Pesonally, I think anybody that goes up Snow Creek is frickin' nuts. Sorry Steve.)

HJ

[classvtony]

Has this subject ever been worked by books, movies and one armed guys on book tours. We do it because we want to, because it will never happen to us, because we can. If we survive till the knees are making sounds like eating celery then great. If not, too bad.

[guest]

Hi guys (& gals),
It's an important subject, obviously, (even potentially life threatening), and needs to be addressed if it's posted on public forums.
As Zip & Jim mentioned, some of these climbs are only for a few, & Steve is concerned about offering to much info on his treks.

Re. a possible pow-wow to address the legal & practical aspects of SC & even Skyline, ( which has had many more rescues than the northface), I'm willing to help mediate a solution.

Sure, some of us want to just go into the wilds & be left alone, but with public info being so readily available, these areas are now being sought out by more & more adventurers.

I had a great open talk with one of the rangers at the top of the tram Sat (after my hike up), and I found this person to be very receptive to the same type of open talks, in fact she welcomes it.
She is also an avid outdoors person (of course), and is aware of typical initial resistance to any "regulation" on these routes.
But, as most of us know, there have been a noticeable increase in SAR's missions on this mt., at great cost & risk to all involved.

So, with a bit of coordination, I think we can have a real influence on what might be done to improve the wilderness experience for everyone that's considering a difficult & potentially dangerous climb.

I know many of you live on the "other" side of San Jac, so I'd be open to a 1/2 way meeting spot, (maybe we could even get a forest or blm office to allow us a space, or we could do a food & drink spot, or...maybe an outdoor area, (Whitewater Cyn Preserve comes to mind, but it's a trek for many of you).

Hell, I forgot what this thread started out as, I'm sure we may have hyjacked it, maybe we need start a new one, so it's easy to find.

happy trails,

scott

[tinaballina]

Agreed Zip, the boards are here to communicate to one another.

Reality check, open communication would make for a better world to live in. Climbing a mountain should be a joyful experience, if we subject ourselves to harm we have to be grateful that people are there to help us. If we bypass onto others property we hope they will tell us and show us how not to intrude on their privacy. Its called respect, too bad more people don't have it.