Skyline vs Marathon - Time comparison

[FIGHT ON]

I'm confused. My best Skyline (although I haven't done too many) is 5:15 yet my best Vivian is 3:30. These are one way times, trailhead to Grubb's Notch for Skyline and trailhead to summit for Vivian. These are both hiking, not running.

I would expect a lot of individual variation. For one thing, Skyline is a desert hike for a long while and Skyline is not.

hey now wait just a dog gone minute here. I thought Skyline was a different hike than Skyline was!

[Hikin_Jim]

Skyline is a desert hike for a long while and Skyline is not.

Hmm, let's see if I understand the problem correctly:
f(x) = Skyline
f(x) ≠Skyline
Solve for "x."

Is this what they call fuzzy math?

[tinaballina]

LMAO, i think they just call that fuzzy.

[FIGHT ON]

LMAO, i think they just call that fuzzy.

Tina, is Skyline > or < Skyline?

[Zé]

of course there are many factors that individualize performance and some differentiate between running flat and on rough terrain uphill.

some important ones would be, in decreasing order (IMO). Of course in reality none of these are independent from the others either.

1) Conditioning - Obviously one's level of training will significantly affect their pace. The higher one's anaerobic threshold, the better 'shape' they are in. Whatever your VO2max score is or max heartrate, your ability to maintain a high % of it for a certain period of time indicates strong endurance conditioning.

Yes its related to lactate management. Lance Armstrong, for instance, does not have the highest VO2max among cyclist but has so a high lactate threshold that he can maintain such a high % of his VO2max for a sustained period of time.

2) Weight - You may be well trained, be able to sustain a high % of your VO2max (maintain high heartrate), but your performance will be limited to how much you weigh.

Generally, heart size (how much oxygenated blood you can pump) is related to your height / body frame. I don't know what the exact relationship is, but its like proportional to height^2 to height ^3.

So someone taller is generally going to have a larger heart, but also more weight to carry.

But among a certain heart size and body frame, you want to keep your weight as low as possible. In endurance activities, you do not need to produce large forces and therefore muscle mass can be kept relatively low. Given a car with a certain engine (heart size), you want to minimize the other weight. In endurance activity, a % increase in bodyweight will basically lead to about the same % increase in time.

3) Genetics - Goes without saying. Some people are simply born with larger hearts relative to their frame. I suppose some people naturally have a better ability to handle lactate, and have a lightweight frame.

Also the musculoskeletal mechanics may vary from person to person, some of which (muscle moment arms, some muscle fiber type) may not be changeable.

4) Mechanical Efficiency - Running economy. Some of this is changeable (optimal running style). You can change the composition of at least some of your muscle fibers (get more slow twitch). In endurance activity you basically want only the slow twitch, non-indefatigable muscle fibers that you need.

Again with the example of Lance Armstrong, part of his success after surviving cancer was his ability to 'remodel' his body, not only reducing his muscle mass in areas he didn't need it but also likely to make that muscle the exact composition (slow twitch) he needed.

As for running uphill versus flat, both have the requirement of regulation of angular momentum (balance of your center of mass) which have to be performed in different manners, and so the distribution of muscle load changes (more quadriceps, plantarflexors etc...) when you run uphill.

I think a conditioned person could switch between the two relatively well given a few months of specific training.

[tinaballina]

Ze- can you elaborate on number #4?
Mechanical Efficiency - Running economy. Some of this is changeable (optimal running style). You can change the composition of at least some of your muscle fibers (get more slow twitch). In endurance activity you basically want only the slow twitch, non-indefatigable muscle fibers that you need.
I am not getting the twitch thing?

Fighton- it is actually BFR via Skyline.

[Zé]

yeah I'm a little vague and all over the place with that one.

let's start with running technique at the whole body level. (I have no specific education on running mechanics so take this all with a grain of salt)

everyone has their own unique running technique, though each can be put in some general categories. for instance, how your foot hits the ground will differ, like 1) heelstrike runner 2) midstrike runner

you may bend your knees more, or keep them straight legged. you may lean your torso forward more, or keep it straight up.

the point is, everyone has a different style. generally people are running with certain mechanics that are close to minimizing energy expenditure, but probably not at the ideal minimum for most people. I say close because of course you are not going to consciously jump up in the air when trying to run forward as it seems like a waste of energy (it is); however, when tracking a person center of mass, there is a small 'jump' in vertical position with every push off.

why is there a 'jump'? well the mechanics of your body say that you'll get more horizontal velocity if you push in a way that causes a little vertical velocity.

however, studies have shown that when comparing runners of similar builds, VO2max, (#1-3 above) etc..., the ones that run faster generally have less 'jump' in the vertical CM so they look more steady.

but does that mean that the other ones should try to run with less 'jump' in vertical CM? not necessarily. 1) the combination of their segment lengths may be a bit different. 2) where their tendons attach to the bones may be in different spots, changing the moment arms, so for a given force, a different moment/torque around the joint will be produced 3) the length of the tendon vs length of the muscle may be different. this has effects on storage of elastic energy 4) muscle fiber type may be different. muscle fibers range from slow twitch (type I) to fast twitch (type II, a/b) - meaning the slow ones contract slowly and the fast ones contract fast. the slow ones take less energy, so they rely on aerobic energy stores. the fast ones need more energy and require anaerobic sources of energy, i.e. from ATP/CP (up to 10 secs) and anaerobic glycolysis (2-3 min).

for endurance activity you want little type II and all type I. as you train you'll get more type I and less type II, but its possible that based on your initial genetic composition, you may still have some type II left, which is basically a hindrance.

man I ramble on about this stuff...anyways the point is there are a lot of factors that can affect performance

[Zé]

oh yeah one more thing

so there are different ways to run / hike, etc...

when you hike, for example, you could keep your torso upright or lean it forward more.

what you choose will change the load distribution across joints and muscles. when you lean forward more, you could preferentially use more hamstring muscles than you would with a more upright torso.

when I hike with people who do a lot of flat running, i notice they tend to lean over more because they already have strong hamstrings and so they want to try to use them.

what it means is that how you are strength/weakness wise before you started hiking, or running - will affect the way you choose to do it. and it may not be the absolute most efficient way to do it, but you won't try to find that more efficient way because it may require certain strengths that you don't have.

if you tried to change up your style, you'll initially feel more pain and be like "this is even worse!" when its possible that if you kept doing it that way, your muscles would adapt to the load and overall it could be less energy.

anyways it is interesting but mostly pointless for most of us since we aren't trying to win any races!

[bluerail]

...my head hurts.

[tinaballina]

Thanks, your second post there made great sense. I think one of the biggest factors with the running vs hiking is of course the weight you carry on your back in your pack along with the pack fitting properly on your back allowing your muscles to work properly as you mentioned with your body upon movement. There for a minute i thought i was writing a nursery rhythm. Ha, i crack myself up.
I find all this very interesting and you are right, its not a race, its a way of life.