Mt. San Jacinto Outdoor Recreation

Howdy All

I'm starting a new thread regarding the unpleasant problems I and others have had with the paid Vivian Creek TH "host" Alex.

There are two separate issues -- the gate limiting access to the Vivian Creek TH and the "host" -- this thread will address Alex.

I am posting here as this discussion is not allowed on the San Gorgonio SGWA forum. I would appreciate any advice and assistance.

Just to be clear, I have absolute respect for USFS rangers (law enforcement officers). I also appreciate the efforts of volunteer rangers and am happy to show my wilderness permit when asked politely.

This is the ONLY time I've refused to show my permit.

I have been told that I may be cited and fined for not showing my permit on Friday November 29. I did not show Alex my permit because:

1) He was rude, unprofessional and threatening and
2) He did not show me a badge indicating that he is a USFS ranger -- or for that matter, any other identification.

The most recent encounter occurred on Friday November 29. Alex walked up to me in the Big Falls parking lot and asked for my permit while I was speaking to friends. I refused and asked to see his badge, identifying that he is a USFS ranger. He did not show me a badge. As my female hiking partner and I walked up the dirt road, Alex angrily hustled by us.

When we entered the forest after passing the wilderness boundary sign, Alex was lying in wait for us and asked to see our permit. I again refused and asked to see his badge -- he did not present a badge. He then pulled out his radio, saying that he was on patrol and worked for the forest service. I asked to see his badge. He called me by name and said he could contact the district ranger via radio. I told him to do that (I would have felt safe with a ranger there), pulled out my cell phone and told him I would record our conversation. We kept hiking as this dialogue took place.

The incident was made us feel uncomfortable and threatened. In retrospect, I wish I'd recorded the confrontation in the forest but he ambushed us and we were more focused on getting away from him.

I've already sent the e-letter below to District Ranger Gabe Garcia and copied John Exline. Mr. Exline has been the only who has responded to me regarding the gate issue.
_________________________________________________

To: ggarcia01@fs.fed.us, jexline@fs.fed.us

Dear Mr. Garcia,

I am submitting a formal complaint regarding Alex, the paid Big Falls Picnic area "host."

The first encounter with Alex occurred on Sunday September 22. Alex wouldn't let us pass the kiosk until my hiking friend had pulled her pack out of the trunk of her car and showed him the hiking permit for the Vivian creek trailhead. Both cars had Wilderness Passes prominently displayed.

The second encounter occurred on Wednesday October 23. As my friends went to the restroom, Alex walked up while I was alone in the dark (creepy) and identified himself as being with the Forest Service. He demanded to see our permit and we had a contentious conversation about improving access to the trailhead which held us up for about 15 minutes.

The third encounter occurred yesterday on Friday November 29. Alex walked up to me in the Big Falls parking lot and asked for my permit while I was speaking to friends. I refused and asked to see his badge, identifying that he is a USFS ranger. He did not show me a badge. As my female hiking partner and I walked up the dirt road, Alex angrily hustled by us. When we entered the forest after passing the wilderness boundary sign, Alex was lying in wait for us and asked to see our permit. I again refused and asked to see his badge -- he did not present a badge. He then pulled out his radio, saying that he was on patrol and worked for the forest service. I asked to see his badge. He called me by name and said he could contact the district ranger via radio. I told him to do that, pulled out my cell phone and told him I would record our conversation. We kept hiking as this dialogue took place. The incident was made us feel uncomfortable and threatened.

I have previously submitted a formal complaint regarding the locked gate which restricts parking at the Vivian Creek trailhead (and thus access to the trail) between 10 PM and 6 AM.

I look forward to your timely response.

Sincerely,
Ellen Coleman

is not here to talk for himself.

Ambushing people in the woods? That's just plain weird.

And he hiked all the way up to the boundary sign way up by Vivian Creek Camp so that he could accost you at the boundary?

HJ

Okay, lemme start with the positive. I gotta give the guy credit for doing that nasty part of the trail so he could legally ask you for your permit. I find it interesting that he did so.

Next, I totally give you credit for requiring him to show a badge or identification. You can't be fined for asking a person who is confronting you as an agent of the state to prove that they are who they purport to be. What if I show up at your house tomorrow and say I'm from the IRS and we've decided that you are behind on your taxes. Then I say I'd like you to pay cash, small bills preferred? If you would pay, then I'll drop by tomorrow.

Finally, requiring proof is not rude or reprehensible. I once went sliding along with my family down an area of polished granite on Lembert Dome. It was nighttime and a man approached us pointing a flashlight in my face and told me we had to stop. I told him to go away and stop bothering us. He then identified himself as a ranger and threatened to write me a ticket. He was young and inexperienced and thought he should just bluff his way forward. I explained to him that law enforcement officers identify themselves before being rude and giving orders. I further explained that if he would like to call his supervisor we could review his tone, mannerisms and procedures thus far and I would love to hear his supervisor's position on writing a ticket. In fact, I said, why don't we walk down to your patrol car right now and call him. While we're there, you can show me in the rules and regulations of the park where it says our activity is illegal.

Ranger: "Well, uh, I don't know if it's actually illegal. I just don't recommend it."

Me: "I appreciate your concern. I feel we are being appropriately cautious and so we're going to ignore your personal advice. If you would like to contact someone who knows the regulations better than you, I'll wait here. If you need to talk to your supervisor and get back to me, give me your badge number, your name, and the name and number of your supervisor and we'll talk tomorrow. If you're right, I'll be happy to comply. If it's just your opinion, then I'm afraid I'm not required to obey that. In fact, I think I'll rather ignore it. Call me tomorrow."

He left in stunned silence. My kids thought I was going to jail.

The next day I got a call from the ranger, apologizing for his actions of the previous night. He said his supervisor had said I was within my rights and there was no such law. He even explained that he had thought from a distance that we were a bunch of teenagers about to kill ourselves sliding around like fools, and that he had been tense as he confronted us because he had expected a bunch of rowdy adolescents, not a family. If he had it to do over, he would have toned it down.

What a great guy, right? Learned from a slight indiscretion and made the situation better. I thanked him for his honesty, and when I ran into him on the trail later in the week we actually chatted for a while. No hard feelings. Live and learn. Hopefully Alex, who seems to be a pretty good hiker, will figure out that you're not against him. And I'm sure if he simply said he'd rather be friends than enemies you'd be willing to bury the hatchet. Maybe he's checked, found out that you really did have a permit, and is already thinking better of you. I have to admit, when I found out he actually hiked that section I began to think more highly of him.

Keep us posted. Hope this turns out positive!

z

Ellen,

I haven't delt with this person nor from my knowledge have you gotten anywhere with the USFS. I would do the following, record the contacts with this man and I mean audio and visual. Make it clear that you are recording and continue your reasonable request for identification. After your great hike get the video to local media one of the Palm Springs stations does a "you report we investigate". They even did an investigation on that odd ball red house in cabazon. Get the media involved, you need a bigger bullhorn.

Take a deep breath, take 10 steps forward. Problem solved.

Well, as I've said, hiking all the way up to the wilderness boundary just to confront someone is bizarre.

I dealt with "Alex" (I assume) a couple of times in October. One observation that I have is that his people skills, well, let's just say they're not his strong suit. For example, he first asked me, "do you have your Adventure Pass?" which is pretty normal; I've had rangers do that before. But then he said "OK, I need to see it". Uh, a little unskillful there, Alex. If you need to see my Adventure Pass, fine, just say "I need to see your Adventure Pass", then there's nothing personal. But if you ask me and then make me prove it, you're basically implying I'm untrustworthy.

I don't think he's trying to be obnoxious; I think he's just being a wee tad overzealous. For example, someone drove around the entrance booth (i.e. they drove in the exit), and he chased them down and chewed them out. Now, they clearly deserved a chewing out, but chasing people down? I'm not sure that's wise.

I think Alex needs some training and some guidelines. It would also be helpful if he had some kind of ID or a uniform or something.

HJ

zippetydude wrote:Live and learn.

Now you're my idol for a new reason
Good livin on your part

Ellen wrote:my female hiking partner and I

Stalker much? Did he cross a litigation line?

I think the bottom line here is that 1. Ellen is a seasoned, veteran hiker who has dealt with many USFS personnel over many years. She's never had any issues with any of them. 2. Ellen is a friendly, warm, and easygoing person who gets along with everyone. It's almost impossible to imagine her in a confrontation. She's not the type to 'fly off the handle", at all.

So, if Ellen felt threatened and concerned .... this guy must have been REALLY inappropriate.

I back you up a thousand percent Ellen. Let me know how we can support you--should we write USFS with a personal testimonial as to your good/pacific character? We can do that if it will help ...let us know.