Vivian Creek Gate Issues

[Ellen]

Howdy All,

On Monday afternoon, I spoke to an awesome woman at the Mill Creek RS to confirm that: 1) Vivian creek trail was open and 2) gate would be unlocked at 6 AM. Sally, Marilyn and I got the last permit and headed up.

As Marilyn and Sally went to the bathroom, Alex walked up and identified himself as being with the Forest Service. He demanded to see our permit and we had a contentious conversation about improving access to the TH which held us up for about 15 minutes.

Key points of the conversation:

I asked whether he was a paid employee or volunteer and he said he was both.

I said I understood the problems with vandalism, etc. and that I was looking for a solution that would be suitable for everyone (e.g. a gate with a key code for hikers wanting to start before 6 AM). When I told him that I initiated the on-line petition to improve access to the TH -- he snorted and he discounted it as "a piece of paper that wouldn't get anyone's attention."

He went on to say that there were problems with unauthorized people getting past the locked gate. I asked how this was possible. He stated that former SGWA volunteers and former USFS employees had keys to the gate.

I noted that it was unfair to punish responsible individuals due to the actions of hoodlums -- he said just one person could ruin it for the other 99.

He said that he did not stop people with valid hiking permits who walked in before 6 AM.. When I asked where they parked, he said, "They walked up from Momyer."

Sally brought up the problems with the permit system. Since the ranger station is only open Thursday to Monday, permits for Tuesday and Wednesday are put out on Monday. Also, why base entry on number of permits (14 per day) rather than number of people?

He repeatedly interrupted us and asked us to "let him finish" his canned speech.

I question whether a paid gate keeper has the legal authority to demand my hiking permit. He also discredited the value of signatures on a petition -- I thought this was part of the democratic process in America. I will be filing a formal complaint with the Forest Service.

We pulled more pink tape off the Dobbs ridge. Carried microspikes but didn't need them. It was a beautiful day. The aspens between Halfway camp and the Vivian creek crossing are gorgeous right now.

I am resuming the effort to improve access to the Vivian creek trailhead and will continue to collect signatures on the petition below. I will also be contacting the forest service again since I have not heard back from anyone -- I'm sure the government shutdown didn't help.

http://www.change.org/petitions/us-depa ... orest-fall

Miles of smiles,
Ellen

[climbant]

Did "Alex" show ID? Unless he is law enforcement I can't imagine what authority he has to stop you. Am I detained/under arrest or free to go?

[Hikin_Jim]

Apparently Alex hasn't cornered the market on brain power.

HJ

[Screerider]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. He checked your permit?

[Sally]

Alex did in fact check our permit, but I'm not sure under what authority. It is curious to me that we would be asked to present a permit at the trailhead parking lot when the actual "Wilderness Boundary" sign is 30 to 40 minutes hike up the trail. We met other hikers whose permits were not checked at the TH. I felt singled out.

I hike many Wednesdays in the San Gorgonio Wilderness and frequently find few, if any, permits to be had at the Mill Creek self-issue kiosk, although I usually get there at 5:15 AM. But we usually see maybe 1 or 2 groups of hikers in a full day of hiking. When I asked Alex about this he claimed that it was because of permit abuse or permit hoarding. He also said that there are 14 permits available for Vivian Creek trail every day.

So, yesterday was actually a busier Wednesday than usual and , counting ourselves, we saw 5 groups on the trail. That makes 9 permits un-accounted for. The permit system is flawed.

Anyhow it WAS a gorgeous day! Here are some pictures:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1009477359 ... directlink

[Hikin_Jim]

Sally,

How would you describe his (Alex's) demeanor? Polite and professional? Rude and demanding? Somewhere in between?

HJ

[Screerider]

I've seen your group. There is no reason why he would single you out except maybe to flirt a little. He was in a logical place to check permits. If you had been going up Mill Creek it may have been a problem.
Not to downplay Alex's job, but as noted he was a gate keeper. He wasn't the one making policy. While he may have had an opinion, he does have a right, and it was only an opinion. There is a saying about opinions I won't repeat here.
Give the guy a break. He isn't here to defend himself for doing a thankless job where he is stuck listening to everybody's rant and raves about how the powers that be are so unfair.
I signed the petition and I hope it helps. I doubt if it will do much. You have to be a big donor and a friend of Jerry Brown to get a trail opened. Getting on Change.org has increased my spam content as well. While some of it is quite amusing, it sort of taints the whole process.
All in all you had a good day.
We have a wilderness. A wilderness in southern California. Imagine that. Whatever it takes. We have wilderness.
When one is in the wilderness, one gains a sense of freedom like nowhere else. In reality the opposite is true. To remain as such, it takes regulations.

[Ellen]

Howdy All,

My letter to the Forest Service:

Dear __________

My friends and I frequently hike in the San Gorgonio wilderness and were very disturbed to find that parking at the Vivian Creek trailhead is now restricted to the hours between 6 AM and 10 PM.

We understand that the decision to restrict access was to decrease vandalism in the Forest Falls picnic area. However, the gate restricts access to the Vivian Creek trailhead as well as the picnic area. Vivian Creek is the most popular trail in the San Gorgonio wilderness. The restricted access creates numerous safety concerns for hikers.

We have over 220 signatures to remove the locked gate:

http://www.change.org/petitions/us-depa ... orest-fall

We want to find a solution acceptable to Forest Falls residents, Forest Service, hikers and the San Gorgonio Wilderness Association.

Possible solutions:
1) Camp host opens gate earlier -- say 4 AM.
2) Issue gate codes to hikers who have wilderness permits and adventure passes. Such codes could change weekly.
3) Security cameras for license plates and visual identification of offenders.

Gate codes and/or security cameras may be more cost effective than a camp host.

We look forward to your timely response.

Miles of smiles,

Ellen Coleman

_____________________________

If you want to individually contact the US Forest Service about the locked gate at Vivian Creek TH, here are e-mail addresses:

Alfredo Zarate, Assistant Recreation Officer azarate@fs.fed.us
Melinda Lyon, Recreation Officer mlyon@fs.fed.us
Gabe Garcia, District Ranger ggarcia01@fs.fed.us
Jody Noiron, Forest Supervisor jnoiron@fs.fed.us
John Exline, Deputy Forest Supervisor jexline@fs.fed.us

I will contact these individuals again. If I don't hear anything back within a reasonable time period (middle of next week), I will move up the chain of command to:

Randy Moore, Regional Forester rmoore@fs.fed.us
Tom Tidwell, Chief ttidwell@fs.fed.us

[Ellen]

Howdy Screerider

Regarding Alex flirting with us =

Thanks for the levity

Miles of smiles,
Ellen

[Ellen]

Howdy All

Next time I will ask to see the identification of anyone who wants to check my permit. I am also considering video taping the interaction.

A few other points I left out of the initial post:

Marilyn and Sally were in the bathroom when Alex walked up and demanded to see our permit. It was dark (I had my headlamp on) and it was a bit creepy to be approached while I was alone.

Like Sally, I felt that we were singled out.

Alex said it was actually his day off but he was awake and decided to come over when he saw our vehicles come past the kiosk.

When discussing the difficulty obtaining permits due to people taking them, Alex said that he once stopped a woman in a car who had a pile of permits in her glove box. While she was filing one out, he reached into her car and took the permits out of her glove box.

It soon became apparent that we were at an impasse and we had tired of hearing him say "let me finish," so I said "We agree to disagree" and we walked away.

Miles of smiles,
Ellen