Restricted Vivian Creek TH Access

[Ellen]

Howdy All

I was very disturbed to discover that Kathy Wing's earlier posts about the restricted access to Vivian had been removed from the San Gorgonio discussion board.

There is now a locked gate that is only open between 6 AM and 10 PM. If one tries to park off the road anywhere near the locked gate, they will be fined and/or towed.

I would like to start a petition to improve the access to Vivian creek TH. I will submit the petition to the forest service and local government officials.

I have posted my intention on the San Gorgonio discussion board but am posting here.

Please let me know if you support having 24 hour access to the Vivian creek TH. I'll start gathering names.

Miles of smiles and thanks,

Ellen Coleman
EColemanRD at aol dot com

[zippetydude]

I am completely on board with you. I don't know how it got this far all of a sudden - no other trail head has these impediments to free usage. It was probably started by some well meaning person who saw how trashed the general area gets by the picnic table and thought...close off the area and the mess goes away. Well, that also puts overnight hikers at risk in cases of emergency and continually forces them to fit within an artificial time frame that does not work for wilderness adventurers. A nice quiet adjustment of the policy will be most effective at saving face and keeping the problem to a minimum. Ellen, if you get a list of who is in charge so that we may contact them we can begin efforts to turn this around immediately. Thanks for your efforts.

NOTE: If this thread is stricken also on the San G board, we will need to conduct communication here on the San G section of the San J board. It's operator has proven very good about leaving posts as long as they are civil and pertain to relevant matters.

z

[KathyW]

I talked to Alfredo Zarate Jr. who works at the Mill Creek Ranger Station. He said that they have the authority to close picnic areas between 10 pm and 6 am; so they are closing the area to prevent vandalism of the new fancy restrooms and kiosk and to stop people from sleeping in the parking lot. The problem is that the area is also a trailhead parking lot and he acknowldeged that he doesn't know what authority they have to close a trailhead parking lot between 10 pm and 6 am.

He said to contact to Gabe Garcia, District Ranger, at (909) 382-2851 to find out how to file a formal complaint and to find out how they were able to get approval to close off a trailhead parking lot. I assume they are ignoring the fact that the parking lot is used both for trailhead parking and for the picinc area. I think the more people that call and complain, the better.

The closure is not seasonal, it is year-round. It is more important to the Forest Service to protect those new improvements than it is to allow the public to have open access to the wilderness.
The couple people at the Forest Service I have talked to so far seem very rigid in their view and don't understand why there is an issue. When I asked if it was a seasonal closure, I was asked why I'd want to go up there in the winter. So, no answer on what authority they have to close a trailhead parking lot and no understanding of wanting to be up there early in the morning or in the winter.

[hvydrt]

It would be nice if you could do a web based petition. Would probably get a lot more people to sign, and be much easier. Something like this: http://www.change.org/petition

[lilbitmo]

Just sent an email to David Whiting to ask his opinion and to see if he has any other insight as well. He's the OC register writer that does outdoor activities. I would rather writer a letter and make it official than to call this person so if anyone does speak to the Ranger in charge, ask for the protocol on how to do that?

I'll post the response from David if I get one?

[Hikin_Jim]

Well, I for one would like to see 24x7 access to the Vivian Creek Trailhead.

That said, I can understand the desire to protect the trailhead area from vandalism.

Perhaps a simple compromise is in order? Instead of a 10 - 6 closure, how about a 10 - 4 closure? A lot of hikers want to start before 6:00, but not too many before 4:00. Perhaps this would be a reasonable balancing between the two competing objectives? Imperfect, yes, but a lot better than the current predicament.

Maybe I missed it, but does anyone have the District Ranger's mailing address?

HJ

[KathyW]

Well, I for one would like to see 24x7 access to the Vivian Creek Trailhead.

That said, I can understand the desire to protect the trailhead area from vandalism.

Perhaps a simple compromise is in order? Instead of a 10 - 6 closure, how about a 10 - 4 closure? A lot of hikers want to start before 6:00, but not too many before 4:00. Perhaps this would be a reasonable balancing between the two competing objectives? Imperfect, yes, but a lot better than the current predicament.

Maybe I missed it, but does anyone have the District Ranger's mailing address?

HJ

If they never spent the money on those improvements, there wouldn't be a locked gate. I'm very concerned that they will continue to find ways to get grants to make improvements to other popular areas and then lock the gates. The locked gates and security will likely be required for them to continue to require the Adventure Pass. This closure really hasn't created any problems for me because I don't typically start hiking before 6 am on Vivian Creek, but I still don't think it is right and I think it's the beginning of a bad trend.

I am also very upset at how the permit system is handled. The Mill Creek Ranger Station does not open early in the morning and is not even open every day. When the ranger station is closed, permits are not outside even when they are available for that day. Permits are never left outside for overnight trips. They also don't track no-shows and reissue permits. They do not issue the permits by person, but instead they issue a certain number of 12 person permits even if just one person is using each permit.

So, they have a very good summer weekend enforcement program with the volunteer patrol on the trail because that is the job most of the volunteers want to do, but they don't have the staff (volunteer or paid) to administer the issuance of the permits. If they can't administer the issuance of permits, they should not have patrols bullying people on the trail when they do not have a permit. Maybe some of those volunteers should be staffing the ranger station and not checking permits? At least the broken permit system is only a problem on weekends from near the end of May until the end of September each year. When the seasonal weekend patrols are not out there, hikers don't get questioned about being on the trail without a permit because there were no permits outside the ranger station when they went by to pick up a permit even when the quota limit had not been met.

[lilbitmo]

David Whiting is interested in at least looking into the situation, he responded with the following statement:

"I'll try and do Gorgonio soon -- been too long tho I seem to have caught the technical bug. And tackle this awful situation."

"Great points on the really dumb and dangerous changes. I criticized our county for doing the same with parking hours for Saddleback and they actually changed their signs. Amazing."

Having a voice in the news may help us get a more serious dialogue going with National Forest Supervisors.

Ellen you can include me in the petition as well.

I saw the response on the SG Wilderness Association Board by one of the forest service individuals/volunteers, they indicated that the Picnic Area is used extensively more than what we hikers use the trail and that is their justification. I had no problem with the system that was there before the most recent improvements, where the picnic area and the parking spots by them were locked and controlled by the forest service and the outside parking lot was open to the hikers to arrive at all hours, to move the gate as far out as they did was what really changed, there used to be an open 24 hours parking area and one right next to the bathrooms, it was only after these improvements that they completely enclosed all parking access. The old system worked well and the police would check on the parking lot about three times each evening and ask the picnickers to leave or they would be locked in for the night, that is if they were in the "inner parking area".

I agree with Kathy 100% that Mill Creek has not given full access to the San Gorgonio Wilderness by controlling how and when you can get permits. Their policies have been self serving for far to long and us citizen have had to deal with at times hostile and arrogant mind sets, like they own it and we are just "guest's in their back yard" when in fact they are paid employees of our tax dollars who's primary purpose is to protect our wilderness, be good "stewards" of that wilderness, and educate the public of how to preserve that wilderness.

As Kathy has pointed out over on that discussion board and in other forums not making all permits available restricts access and since they already have a "set quota" this policy and behavior is really in effect reducing that "quota even more" which should not be the goal.

I for one have never understood where that original number came from, what math, science, ideology was used to draw the conclusions that set the quota. Those of us that have visited areas all over this state and others have found that "Mill Creek" is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the way things are handled.

I for one have found it rather annoying to have to be stopped more than once on a trail to answer questions about my permit to volunteers, who when you get down to it have no authority to be "policing us" in the wilderness in the first place or am I missing something here?

I truly believe that Kathy has hit on the key point about the Parking Permit Fees and like a virus if it's not put in check the local "powers to be" will continue to make improvements and then control our access to those areas. If we do not take the action to put things in check that virus will spread, we have to be the antibiotic that stops the disease in it's tracks.

I've willing paid the parking fees for years so that parking areas will remain open, bathrooms will have toilet paper, trash will be removed but most of all so that I can have access to parking at all hours day and night. I like Alpine starts, the heat is too much for me on most summer days going up and that soft cool breeze in the early morning is one of the great pleasure in life.

Ellen will you be requesting the formal petition? Or would you like one of us to get it?

Thanks for listening to my ramblings

Lilbitmo/Patrick

[climbant]

My question would be, and unfortunately it would probably have to be fought in court, what authority does the forest service have in the permit system? Its already been ruled that they overstepped their authority with the adventure pass and some in forest service management don't even think that the ruling applies to "their" forest. Maybe Western Slope No Fee Coalition would be interested in this. We should be free to come and go at trailheads.

[lilbitmo]

My question would be, and unfortunately it would probably have to be fought in court, what authority does the forest service have in the permit system? Its already been ruled that they overstepped their authority with the adventure pass and some in forest service management don't even think that the ruling applies to "their" forest. Maybe Western Slope No Fee Coalition would be interested in this. We should be free to come and go at trailheads.

Climbant - do you have a person we can contact at Western Slope No Fee Coalition?

Do you mean parking Adventure Pass (permits) or do you mean "permits" to enter the wilderness altogether?