spot

[HikeUp]

And beer.

[AlanK]

The SPOT definitely has more options, if it can communicate. My concern with the SPOT is that it has a reputation of not being able to communicate under heavy tree cover and deep canyons whereas a PLB with its stronger signal can.

I have no ax to grind here, but suggest that people interested in Spot and/or PLBs read about an attempted rescue of a PCT hiker this spring. The initial locations given by the SPOT people were quite a few miles off. the hiker made it to safety on her own. The discussion does cover the help and 911 functions, etc.

http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum ... /0/fpart/1

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJourna ... ry_id=8688

[zippetydude]

What!? A few MILES!? So she made it out on her own?

Can you say "utterly pointless", boys and girls?

Hmmm. Well, I remember when digital cameras sucked too. Give it time. For now, I guess we're lucky to have anything that can at least notify people to come help us.

z

[Hikin_Jim]

I found this comment in the thread to be particularly disturbing:

I explained in one of the other threads on SPOT that it is know to be off on the coordinates sent up in the message. In my case, several OKs from the unit at the Portal showed up as being in Meysan Canyon.

[magikwalt]

First I don't receive a kickback from SPOT to rep their product so I am not attempting to get anyone to use it. That being said I profoundly hope that people following this discussion understand that all tools to help you get rescued only work to the extent you use them correctly. A map and compass in the hands of a person who doesn't know how are best used as a fire starter.

From the posts that Alan provided read the Whitney Portal one and several people there ask very good questions. Why wasn't she using the Tracking Mode? The service provides you with a public or private website link that allows people to see your location track which is automatically taken every 10 minutes.

Why did she turn the beacon off after activating 911? If she had left it on the beacon would have been active for 24 hours giving her position every 10 minutes. They would have been able to track her movement as she headed for Lone Pine.

I do have a little bit of an understanding of satellite communications from my days with the Marines and withi working for Hughes Space and Commuications. Commications satellites all work the same way for all devices so regardless if you have PLB, SPOT, Satellite Phone or going satellite to satellite you must be able to see a satellite or it won't work. Its the reason Direct TV won't let you put your dish inside the garage. If you fall into a canyon, cave or tree cover so dense a signal doesn't get out or gets degraded then they all fail. Line of sight communications is the way they work. Communicating takes a single satellite. If you can see it you can communicate with it.

Satellite positioning calculated by GPS requires more than one satellite and is better understood by imagining 3 or more fire stations calling out the bearing they all see a fire's smoke coming from. By drawing a line on the bearing each station reports you get a fix on the location of the fire. If you get 4 or 5 stations reporting you begin to tighten the location even better. Your GPS calculates your position based upon the timing signals it receives from satellites and the more satellites it can see the tighter your position is reported.

PLBs can be purchased with or without GPS capability. If you take a PLB with GPS into the same canyon that a spot get lost in and it will suffer the same result. A PLB that transmits a signal can only be "heard" by one satelitte is no better than a spot at providing your where abouts. The "homing beacon" portion of a PLB does provide a 5 watt transmitted signal for searchers to find but the normally are dead after 24 hours.

Mountains, canyons, caves and trees effect commications with all of these devices. Words from two CAP mission commanders: Don't wait to be rescued by CAP, walk or crawl to a road.

[FIGHT ON]

Check out the REI Customer Reviews.

[Jim Bakos]

All:

Here’s something that came across the SAR message board regarding SPOT. Thought it might be of interest to those of you that own one, or considering purchasing one.

FYI: A PLB (not SPOT) will also send out a signal on 121.5 MHz. A SAR team can use that to direction-find the location. RMRU has used this feature in the past, and it helped triangulate the subject (who eventually walked out under his own power). I don’t know whether that’s more helpful, I’m just providing information.

--Jim / His views and not those of RMRU.

Spot info below:


Over the last 3 weeks, I've spent a lot of time working with SPOT Customer Support as well as the Pitkin County Sheriff department. We've finally started to come to a conclusion on this, and have some important info to pass on to current SPOT customers and those considering buying SPOT service.

Some of you saw the trip report, but I was the subject of a rescue on the Maroon Bells on July 31st. During the incident, I had my SPOT Tracker with me and was able to use the "911" feature to alert SAR of my location. When "911" is active, the unit updates and resends the GPS location regularly for as long as "911" is on. As a result, about 20 "911" messages ended up being sent from my unit. While the rescue was successful, I learned after the fact that the SPOT had resulted in quite a bit of confusion at the sheriff's department as well as back at home.

I received word from Pitkin County yesterday as to exactly what happened. In short, when "911" is active, the GEOS Alliance (the company that manages the all communications when a SPOT is in "911" mode) updates the authorities (in this case, search and rescue), every time the subject moves 1/4 mile. In the ocean, where they do their testing, this makes sense. On a mountain, however, this does NOT make much sense. As you can imagine, this is rather frustrating for SAR teams, where 1/4 mile can cover a lot of altitude, and is basically the difference between two completely different rescues.

When I contacted SPOT regarding this issue, they stated "As official S&R they will be granted full account access and will be able to obtain exact coordinates from us directly if necessary. It may be a good idea to advise your emergency contacts of this, that way they can communicate this information if necessary. Our phone number is 1-800-OK1-SPOT." However, GEOS explained to Pitkin County that they cannot provide "full account access" because of sensitive information (credit card, etc). They had to rely on calling in to get new GPS coordinates. In the end, on my rescue, my parents ended up giving Mountain Rescue Aspen my login information so that they could access the online map and current GPS information directly.

I'm hoping sometime in the future there will be a better solution to handle this. In the mean time, I would HIGHLY recommend leaving the SPOT phone number (1-800-OK1-SPOT) as well as your login information to the SPOT website with your emergency contacts. Should a rescue occur, this will make things a LOT easier for SAR teams.

[Jim Bakos]

To add to my above post:

Walt hit the nail on the head. GPS will only work accurately when it gets a signal from several satellites. If you own a GPS, you’ll notice this in its resolution – accurate within 30 feet vs. 300 feet, altitude vs. no altitude, etc… I assume that is what the above author was alluding to in the write-up of his rescue.

Fight On mentioned Amateur Radio (Ham Radio). There are wilderness frequencies that folks use, and I guarantee all SAR teams have at least a few Ham Radio operators on their roster. For those that are interested, you can buy the book, take your test and purchase a radio (Walkie Talkie) for about $200 total. His is FAR better than FRS/GMRS radios.

And, to wrap this up: Nothing will work efficiently if you don’t leave the information with your emergency contact. Whether you’re using a SPOT, a FRS/GMRS radio, Ham Radio or smoke signals. If SAR has access to that information, we’ll get to you MUCH quicker.

[Smoke Signals: While I don’t encourage or recommend folks light fires in the wilderness. I can speak from personal experience that more than one individual has had their life saved by a column of smoke – some using the matches from a persons backpack who didn’t make a smoky fire and died in the wilderness.]

Old scratched CD’s make a great signal mirror. Carry a red bandanna to signal the helicopter with too. Carry the Ten Essentials. And, above all, Hike Safe!

--Jim / My opinions not those of RMRU

[Hikin_Jim]

Why did she turn the beacon off after activating 911? If she had left it on the beacon would have been active for 24 hours giving her position every 10 minutes. They would have been able to track her movement as she headed for Lone Pine.

I get the impression that she really wasn't much of a hiker. She was really unprepared for the conditions, multiple times, and really didn't respond in the way that a seasoned hiker would have. God bless her, but she really had no idea what she was doing.

... you must be able to see a satellite or it won't work. If you fall into a canyon, cave or tree cover so dense a signal doesn't get out or gets degraded then they all fail.

True of course, but SPOT brodcasts at about 0.5W whereas a PLB transmits at 5.0W (about 10x the signal strength). I'm not a comms expert, but from what I've read a stronger signal will get through tree cover better than a weaker signal. In a cave, you're equally screwed with either a PLB or SPOT.

A PLB that transmits a signal [that] can only be "heard" by one satelitte is no better than a spot at providing your where abouts.

I believe that to be incorrect. Even if you can't get GPS service, COSPAS-SARSAT satellites get a rough position on the first detection via doppler shift analysis. Each subsequent pass or detection by another SARSAT satellite improves the accuracy of your position. Position via doppler shift analysis on a SPOT is not available.
SPOT: No GPS, no postition at all.
PLB: No GPS, a position can still be calculated. A GPS based position is far more precise, but a rough position can be determined without GPS, and then the homing beacon is used to find the exact position when search teams get into the area.

Words from two CAP mission commanders: Don't wait to be rescued by CAP, walk or crawl to a road.

Interesting. I've always heard that you're supposed to stay put. I wonder what their reasoning is on that? Or is the "stay put" recommendation some sort of wimpy, "PC" idea, and these two "old salts" are giving us the straight dope?

[neverwashasbeen]

As far as staying put, vs heading out. Most of the time SAR for the public is looking for people who are lost. If they are lost and try to get back to safety, they often end up heading in the wrong direction. The further they go, the longer and often harder it is to find/rescue them.

For the military, their personnel would be expected to know where they are and what direction safety is in, so they should get moving.