Restricted Vivian Creek TH Access

[climbant]

Sorry about that, the wilderness permits is what I meant. I don't have a contact at Western Slope, just have read the site from time to time. Really good info on it.

http://www.westernslopenofee.org/

[KathyW]

My question would be, and unfortunately it would probably have to be fought in court, what authority does the forest service have in the permit system? Its already been ruled that they overstepped their authority with the adventure pass and some in forest service management don't even think that the ruling applies to "their" forest. Maybe Western Slope No Fee Coalition would be interested in this. We should be free to come and go at trailheads.

I have been in touch with Kitty at the Western Slope No Fee Coalition. Their mission is mainly to stop fees like the Adventure Pass Fee. The courts have ruled against these fees, and there are now a lot less places where the Adventure Pass or other similar fees are required. The Forest Service believes it can still charge fees and require permits in areas defined as follows:

Standard Amenity Fees
Examples: Picnic areas, developed trailheads, destination visitor centers
Explanation: Typically, standard amenity fees are day use fees, often covered by a day or annual pass. Each site or area must contain six "amenities," which are picnic tables, trash receptacle, toilet, parking, interpretive signing and security.

Expanded Amenity Fees
Examples: Campgrounds, highly developed boat launches and swimming areas, cabin or lookout rentals. Services like hookups, dump stations, special tours, transportation systems and reservation services.
Explanation: Provides direct benefits to individuals or groups.

Special Recreation Permits
Examples: Shooting ranges, special events, specialized trail systems
Explanation: Permits are issued when extra measures are required for natural and cultural resource protection, or the health and safety of visitors. They may also be used to disperse recreation use or help ensure that the number of visitors does not exceed the capacity of the land.

The problem is that the court ruled that the FS can't charge fees to people who are just parking in an area and walking through it to go for a hike as long as they are not using the picnic area...etc.

Anyway, Kitty said there is litigation slowly making it's way through the court system to limit the use of the Adventure Pass fee even more. They feel the court will eventually rule that the FS can't charge the Adventure Pass Fee to those who are just passing through one of the improved areas. She is willing to help out anyone who does not have an adventure pass and gets a ticket when they are just parking at a trailhead and passing through an area where the FS is charging a fee. The FS and its agents might be bullying people into buying the passes, but they probably can't force people to pay the fine when they are just passing through one of the fee areas to go on a hike.

I am concerned that the FS will continue to request grants to improve popular area to meet the criteria that allows additional fees to be charged, and in the process they will install more gates and limit access to additional areas.

If the concern at the Vivian Creek Trailhead is vandalism at night, the caretaker should be watching the parking lot at night and not up all day checking people for permits and adventure passes. I don't get why he needs to lock the gate at night.

There is a lot of good information here: http://www.westernslopenofee.org/

Just wait until the National Park takes back those backcountry cabins and starts charging the public fees to use them. Those cabins have been maintained and fixed up by volunteers for years. It sounds like the Geologist's cabin will be one of the first ones they will do that with. They are also expanding commercial activity in Death Valley NP. I can't see how expanding commercial activity improves a wilderness, but it's all about those fees, but I'm onto something else now.

[KathyW]

If anyone is interested in having their say on the renewal of the Recreation Enhancement Act, it might be a good time to do so.

The Recreation Enhancement Act (REA) expires in December 2014. If there is no law enacted to replace REA when it expires in December, 2014, the agencies will have no express recreation fee authority, as REA repealed the recreation fee provisions in the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act and Recreational Fee Demonstration Program statute.

Here's some testimony on it:

http://naturalresources.house.gov/uploa ... -18-13.pdf

I think maybe Andy Stahl's conclusion isn't a bad one:

"What makes sense for almost half of Americans should make sense for all. FSEEE recommends that Congress re-authorize FLREA, but delete the authority in 16 USC 6802(f) to charge standard amenity recreation fees on Forest Service, BLM and Bureau of Reclamation lands. This amendment would retain fee authority for entrance to national parks and for the “expanded amenity” recreational uses for which fees have been authorized since 1965, e.g., developed campgrounds and cabin rentals.
We also recommend that the recreation appropriations for the three affected agencies be increased by an amount no less than the value of the standard amenity fee receipts paid in 2012."

Source: http://naturalresources.house.gov/uploa ... -18-13.pdf

[tarol]

"We also recommend that the recreation appropriations for the three affected agencies be increased by an amount no less than the value of the standard amenity fee receipts paid in 2012."

Aye, there's the rub

Anybody call their congressman or woman and ask them to do that?

[KathyW]

"We also recommend that the recreation appropriations for the three affected agencies be increased by an amount no less than the value of the standard amenity fee receipts paid in 2012."

Aye, there's the rub

Anybody call their congressman or woman and ask them to do that?

I have contacted my congress person about the recreation fees because I don't want them renewed. You can't increase the appropriations to the three affected agencies unless you take it from some other agency or ask the public to pay more taxes. In the current climate, those are two unlikely optons. Maybe the FS wouldn't have needed to spend $700,000 for improvements at Vivian Creek/Big Falls if the improvments weren't part of the requirements to allow for the collection of fees. I wonder how much money has been spent in other places to allow for the collection of fees since the fee collection programs began.

I also think there's truth to what Kitty Benzar said in her testimony:

"The Forest Service and BLM have justified these fees in one of two ways. Either they have installed amenities under the Standard Amenity Fee authority and then charged a fee for them whether they are used or not, or else they have declared all use of certain undeveloped areas to be a “specialized recreation use” under the authority of the Special Recreation Permit authority in the FLREA.

The “build it and they will pay” approach, favored by the Forest Service, has resulted in unneeded and excessive facilities being erected that add to maintenance backlogs, merely in order to justify charging a fee."

source: http://naturalresources.house.gov/uploa ... -18-13.pdf

I wonder if people would be more willing to fund projects through donations instead of taxes and fees. If the donations were for specific projects they supported they would feel better about spending the money. Maybe if the recreation fees go away, we won't have to worry as much about the construction of more gates and kiosks. It's really frustrating.

More Info: http://naturalresources.house.gov/calen ... tID=337394

[Screerider]

I'm all for the fees. I'm all for the gates. I've seen the mess, the unsanitary conditions. We all have.
If issued with a wilderness pass, access cards would provide the policing needed. With a little technology, permits could be automatic. They would know when you entered and when you left.

[Ellen]

Howdy All

I've started an on-line petition to remove the locked gate at Vivian Creek trailhead. I will also file a formal complaint. If you agree, please sign the on-line petition.

http://www.change.org/petitions/us-depa ... orest-fall

Thanks,
Ellen

[Ardiner]

Howdy All

I've started an on-line petition to remove the locked gate at Vivian Creek trailhead. I will also file a formal complaint. If you agree, please sign the on-line petition.

http://www.change.org/petitions/us-depa ... LTEBiKPRPy

Thanks,
Ellen

Ellen, the linktook me to change.org but I recieved a message that it could not find the page. Thanks for initiating this. I had a personal experience several weeks back with the Vivian Creek Trailhead where we were doing a loop hike going up Momyer to Gorgonio and back down Vivian Creek. In the past we would have started earlier than 6 a.m. on that loop but due to the locked gate had to drop the shuttle car at the gate opening and then driving back to the trail. We were given quite the interogation by the gate volunteer who wanted to know where we were hiking, demanded to see our permit and then when we shared our plan gave us grief about the fact that the gates would be closed at 8PM and if we were not out by then they would be locked in all night. We were all good solid hikers and the only reason that 8PM would be a risk is because we could not start until we could drop the shuttle car despite Momyer being an open trailhead. The volunteer did not believe we could complete the hike before 8PM so discouraged us from parking there. We 'politely' told them it was our right to park and our responsibility to worry about the problem if we were not back in time not theirs. We finally parked but by the time we finally got done with the interogation and back to Momyer we didn't get on the trail until almost 6:45 compounding the problem. On the hike we got hung up a few times with rain and thunderstorms and had to sit them out along the trail. We ultimately summitted and got back to the parking lot at about 7:45p.m. On the way down we discussed how the closure of the lot really was problematic as it influenced our decisions throughout the day and caused us to potentially take more risk than was necessary in the conditions to ensure we arrived back by 8PM. At least it sounds like they backed that off to 10PM now but it really made both ends of what otherwise was a wonderful day stresseful

[Jill G]

@Ellen: The petition states "The trailhead gate is locked from 6 AM to 10 PM. This restricts hikers' access to the Vivian creek trail -- the most popular trail in the San Gorgonio wilderness.".
Needs a correction/edit as The gate is locked from 10pm-6am NOT 6am-10pm.

[Ellen]

Howdy Jill

Thanks for the heads up -- the petition is corrected

Miles of smiles,
Ellen