@#%^&&*! Commercialism!!

[Hikin_Jim]

Apparently, while I was gone the last two weeks, Topozone.com got bought out by Trails.com -- ARGH! Dang, that was one of my favorite sites. RATS!!

[FIGHT ON]

Jim.
One of the first trails I got from Topozone was the VIVIAN CREEK TRAIL. Have you looked at that one? It's messed up. Doesn't follow the actual trail. Last year when I was chasing Charles the trail between HALFWAY and HIGH CREEK doubles back to the west. The Topozone did not show that and I ended up going back and forth a buch of times trying to figure out where I was. I eventually decided to continue on and forget about Gorgonio thinking I will just have a great hike on the trail, but it eventually got to HIGH CREEK where I found the note left by Charles. I wonder if it was showing an old trail or what is now a less used short cut?

[AlanK]

Jim.
One of the first trails I got from Topozone was the VIVIAN CREEK TRAIL. Have you looked at that one? It's messed up. Doesn't follow the actual trail. Last year when I was chasing Charles the trail between HALFWAY and HIGH CREEK doubles back to the west. The Topozone did not show that and I ended up going back and forth a buch of times trying to figure out where I was. I eventually decided to continue on and forget about Gorgonio thinking I will just have a great hike on the trail, but it eventually got to HIGH CREEK where I found the note left by Charles. I wonder if it was showing an old trail or what is now a less used short cut?

The problem is that the USGS maps are old. It does not matter it you buy a paper one, use National Geographic TOPO!, TopoZone (while it existed as an independent entity) or what. The Vivian Creek trail was changed years ago and it is considerably longer than it used to be (and is shown on the maps). I have posted a few times a map with a GPS trace of the current trail and the old one. The current one is longer, which is why one sees 7.5 - 8.0 miles in books for a trail that is now about 9 miles long.

[AlanK]

(oops)

[AlanK]

(oops)

[FIGHT ON]

AlanK? Did you know you stutter?

[FIGHT ON]

too late AlanK. I saw already, And I am telling EVERYBODY!

[Hikin_Jim]

Yes, the USGS maps are out of date, and, particularly, man made features are wrong/grossly out of date. For example, the John's Meadow ("Forsee Basin Trail") doesn't show up at all, and the lower Falls Creek Trail is still shown even though it's been closed for 30+ years. There's been a decision to spend less time updating USGS maps. The old photo revisions appear to be a thing of the past. The USGS is now going to rely (from what I've read) on mostly reports from state and local agencies. In other words, areas in which development is ocurring will be fairly up to date where areas that left alone will not. Sigh. Still the USGS maps are the best there is, and Topozone was the best free site out there.

There's still:
http://www.mytopo.com/search.cfm
http://mapserver.maptech.com
http://terraserver-usa.com/

I don't find any of those to be as good as Topozone was. Anyone know of another good free site?

Google is also putting terrain -- with contour lines -- on it's standard map product, http://maps.google.com, but trails aren't marked.

[FIGHT ON]

Jim.
I liked that free topozone too and have been tempted to use the ones that offer a free trial period but am too chicken. Ever tried them? Wonder how they are.
What are the best maps regardless of the cost? I like those Tom Harrison maps. Do you like them or do you think the regular topo maps you can get at Sport Chalet are better? Hey and don't go getting married again. AlanK has had a hard time filling in for you while you were away.

[Hikin_Jim]

I haven't tried any map sites with the "free trial period."

I love Tom Harrison Maps; they're great. I use them for planning and to get the general "lay of the land." However, they're definitely NOT adequate for detailed navigation. I like doing XC stuff, so I typically bring the standard USGS 1:24,000 7.5' series topo maps. The USGS ones are also great if "something comes up." Last year, about this time, I hiked a counter clockwise loop from the Forsee Creek TH in the SG Wilderness up over San Bernardino and E San Bernardino Peaks. The trail east of E San Bernardino Pk to Trail Fork Spgs was completely obscured by snow. I had to pull out the topo and do a bit of land nav. REALLY glad to have carred a 1:24k instead of just a Harrison. Also, a couple of years ago, I did the "Nine Peaks Loop" also in the SG Wilderness. Alto Diablo is fairly indistinct, and the Tom Harrison Map was no help at all. I wound up wasting time and effort and climbed a false peak before the true peak because I couldn't tell which was the true peak from the Harrison map. I wish that I had brought a 1:24k map that day, but I didn't, figuring it would be 95% on trail with only a few short off trail hops to the peaks.

HJ