Shortcuts

[AlanK]

I thought that this should be a separate thread and even said so as I hijacked another one.

shortcuts

FIGHT ON Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:50 am

Marknhj, I have always suspected that there were shortcuts on Skyline. I have seen several signs of what look like forks along the way which were either already blocked off by something like a long tree limb or rocks or the person(s) that I was hiking with stopped and erected a barrier to make it clear that wasn't the way to go.
I was once overtaken by a trail runner somewhere along the way and as he passed I decided to hang to see how long I could keep up. He soon veered off the trail and started across where there wasn't a clear trail. Once he realized I was still tailing him he turned and announced that I should go back to the main trail. Which I did.
I was wondering a few things about these shortcuts. When you figure your time do you always go the same route? (take the same shortcuts) Or take what ever route will get you the fastest time regardless of which route you go.(making new shortcuts)
I was assuming that people who have timed them selves on this hike or on any hike have all stayed on the main trail so that the times can be compared accurately.
I don't think it's a good idea to take shortcuts on established trails but Skyline is I guess really not a trail. Like a route or path or what ever. So it's interesting to me what you think about it.
Specifically making new paths off the main route and possibly damaging more sensitive areas.
Are these shortcuts secretes or maybe you can share with us where they are.

-------------------------------------------------------------

AlanK Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:43 am

A general discussion of shortcuts on Skyline deserves its own thread.

I have been doing Skyline since 2002. That makes me a relative newcomer, but it is also true that the number of people doing the hike has grown tremendously in the time I've been going there.

We have seen quite a few people taking shortcuts, mostly regulars who know the area well. I didn't see that as bad when the total number of hikers on the trial was relatively small. However, the large number of hikers on the trail and the growing number who take shortcuts suggest that the area is in for a lot of damage. I've seen guys cutting switchbacks by ten feet to gain tiny savings. That is really obnoxious.

It does not matter that Skyline is not an official trail. The area needs to be taken care of. That means that the days of shortcuts need to end. Just because someone has been doing the hike for years does not entitle them to special consideration. We should all respect the trail. It's one thing to taks shortcuts over granite in the Sierra. That's not what we're dealing with here.

If you want to compare times with people, do it over a fixed course so that your time means something.

-------------------------------------------------------------

bluerail Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:44 pm

I'm absolutely new here, but I can assure you that any shortcut Mark or Ellen took, was a well worn path and the only time they may have been off-trail was by accident up in the big trees. And then it was only for a very short distance.

But who are those people dropping water bottles and wrappers above 4000 ft. ?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Marknhj Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:04 pm

The shortcuts I referred to are across already established routes. Whether they should exist is not is something I'm not particularly qualified to discuss, being new to hiking. When I first did Skyline in May, I was shown some by experienced hikers but the steeper gradients impacted my legs to such degree there was no effective decrease in time taken for the total ascent. Actually, I believe they slowed me down. But, they are definitely faster if you are conditioned adequately. There are two significantly quicker routes that I use; one halfway up to the picnic tables and another at the top of Shady Slope. But they are steep. The others add up cumulatively to result in faster times; some are easier to spot than others. The only area in which I take what could be called unestablished shortcuts across switchbacks are in the rocks above the traverse. That's because I seem to take a different route each time and often can't see the trail. I doubt if it makes any difference in time and wish I could always follow the trail up there.

Speaking for myself, Skyline is the only hike on which I care about time. That's because of the nature of the hike and the defined start and finish lines. Other peoples times are only an indicator of what is possible and something for me to aim towards. To me it is a highly personal challenge. A competition with only one participant. Me. I really don't care about, or want to beat, any other hikers times. But I celebrate and have admiration for the fast guys because I can now directly relate to the effort involved and the athleticism/fitness that it takes. And, I respect anyone and everyone who completes the route, no matter how long it takes them.

If getting from A-B as fast and directly as possible, without tramping across unbroken areas, upsets anyone else who is also timing themselves, that's not something that causes me much concern. Although new to hiking here, I come from a highly competitive background where there is a direct correlation between personal commitment and results. Skyline, to me, is simply an extension of that in a different environment; it's neither a race nor a competitive time-trail. It's a personal challenge with measurable results.

-------------------------------------------------------------

KathyW Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:43 pm

There is no established trail but the routes up are well worn and easy to follow - it sure feel like being on a trail. There are areas where there's more than one path to follow and I think the steeper path is usually referred to as the shortcut, but maybe the longer route is the shortcut - I'm not sure. In any case, I think most people stay on the worn paths.

I think in terms of elevation gain most of the time more than in miles. So, no matter what path I follow it's still pretty close to the same elevation gain to get up the hill.

I think most people time themselves because they have personal goals they are working on and as they get faster and stronger they report their progress because they are proud of themselves. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments.

In my opinion, discussions on speed, trail distance, food/supplements eaten, and etc. can be productive and provide helpful information, as long as it's a discussion and not just someone posting to belittle or attack others. We all have different points of view we want to express, but we need to respect each other and try not to be overly judgmental when we express our opinion. Some of these topics might work better under the chat section and not on the same thread that someone posts a trip report - they might seem more objective that way.

-------------------------------------------------------------

AlanK Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:13 pm

I think it's great to shoot for personal goals, compare times, etc. I do it all the time. Also, I don't want to be overly judgmental about people following established paths. However, there is a problem with Skyline. The number of established paths is growing precisely because so many people are taking shortcuts from the main trail, which is very well-established indeed. This is going to get out of control unless people start showing some restraint. I would rather see some of the existing shortcuts revert to a more natural state than see the number of them continue to grow.

Getting from point A to point B as fast as one can is fine. Shortcuts can certainly help one decrease that time. But why not just make the best time one can on the standard trail?

-------------------------------------------------------------

asabat Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:16 pm

Alan has a good point. We have a trail we enjoy that is not always accepted by the land managers as it is. We should keep the route clean and minimize our impact if we don't want to see increased regulation, permits, and seasonal or permanent closure.

-------------------------------------------------------------

KathyW Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:54 pm

Maybe a new thread needs to be started if people want to discuss trail conditions/length/shortcuts.

[Hikin_Jim]

Isn't a new thread just another shortcut? Please learn to hijack threads properly.

[AlanK]

This thread is an official established trail.

[Perry]

Back in 2002 there was a single well-defined trail between the painted rocks and the end of the traverse. Only the museum trail had shortcuts (not as bad as today) and it was of course hard to find the trail at that last drainage before Coffman's Crag. Now it all looks like hell. Those shortcuts were started by locals. I know this because of admission and because when you're ascending the "original" path you can't look up and see where the shortcuts return to the main path again. Only people familiar with Skyline could have started them because they are very direct. I thought about spending a day with one or two other people and placing boulders in front of those shortcuts. The shortcut people could step over or around the boulders, but at least the new hikers would know which way to go and not contribute to erosion so much. And it would be surprisingly ironic if a shortcut person took the effort to move a 100-pound boulder out of the way.

[FIGHT ON]

Back in 2002 there was a single well-defined trail between the painted rocks and the end of the traverse. Only the museum trail had shortcuts (not as bad as today) and it was of course hard to find the trail at that last drainage before Coffman's Crag. Now it all looks like hell. Those shortcuts were started by locals. I know this because of admission and because when you're ascending the "original" path you can't look up and see where the shortcuts return to the main path again. Only people familiar with Skyline could have started them because they are very direct. I thought about spending a day with one or two other people and placing boulders in front of those shortcuts. The shortcut people could step over or around the boulders, but at least the new hikers would know which way to go and not contribute to erosion so much. And it would be surprisingly ironic if a shortcut person took the effort to move a 100-pound boulder out of the way.

I'm one or two other people. and two or three people could move a 500lb bolder.

[Perry]

Maybe a 300-lb boulder with 3 or 4 guys. Remember boulders are bulky. It's not like lifting weights at a gym where you have a nice hand grip and the weight is close to you. If it's just the museum trail, that's one thing. For an entire 8,000 foot climb you can pay a price for lifting heavy things... Are you game for the museum trail to try this out? That's the worst, and it's an official trail.

[FIGHT ON]

Maybe a 300-lb boulder with 3 or 4 guys. Remember boulders are bulky. It's not like lifting weights at a gym where you have a nice hand grip and the weight is close to you. If it's just the museum trail, that's one thing.

I wasn't talking about carrying it 5 miles!!! But, Remember, you haven't met me yet!

For an entire 8,000 foot climb you can pay a price for lifting heavy things... Are you game for the museum trail to try this out? That's the worst, and it's an official trail.

I thought you were talking about gathering boulders around from the general adjacent areas. If you want to carry stuff from the bottom then we might as well go all the way. (this kinda reminds me of the sgwa board graffiti on san g.) Let's get those statues from Easter Island! Talk about making a statement!
But seriously I imagined these shortcuts were close to half way up. Like at least 4 miles from the start.
Any stones that would be carried up from the start could be easily moved away by persons who hike up there and are fresh with energy. I'd like to get some huge ones from around the area and burry them half way in the ground. Deep! LOL! (But then wouldn't that be messing up the off trail areas??) I guess someone would object to that too.
I agree with your idea that for new hikers that don't know the way it would show where the right way to go is. You can't stop experienced Skyliners from stepping over or around them that know the way but that would at least minimize it.
I wouldn't be against a row of big boulders with one of those small white arrows on one of them. A clear sign which is the right way to go. This sure seems like one of those things that no matter what you do somebody is going to complain.
It's too bad that people just don't simply do the right thing and stay on the trail.

[FIGHT ON]

...are symbolic to me.
They remind me of a park with trash all around.
You walk in, sit and finish your sack lunch and are about to leave.
There's an unfilled trash can about 50 feet away in the opposite direction of where you are headed.
you are alone...

[AlanK]

I would not get too rigid about always staying on trail. For example, one cannot get to the top of Mt. San Jacinto without leaving a trail. In fact, there is no real trail in places near the top of Skyline. There are many places when one can take a direct off-trail route over granite, scree, etc. without causing erosion. In winter, trails disappear in many places and virtually all hiking is off-trail. And there are nice places to visit that have no trails.

In the case of Skyline, however, we have an area that was little-used with no official trail. Locals could make their own way in places without leaving a trace. Now, however, the mountain is getting messed up and people need to restrain themselves.

[FIGHT ON]

I would not get too rigid about always staying on trail. For example, one cannot get to the top of Mt. San Jacinto without leaving a trail. In fact, there is no real trail in places near the top of Skyline. There are many places when one can take a direct off-trail route over granite, scree, etc. without causing erosion. In winter, trails disappear in many places and virtually all hiking is off-trail. And there are nice places to visit that have no trails.

In the case of Skyline, however, we have an area that was little-used with no official trail. Locals could make their own way in places without leaving a trace. Now, however, the mountain is getting messed up and people need to restrain themselves.

I'm talking about shortcuts connected to established trails that are obviously created by a one track mind, to shortening the distance. They mess up the landscape and you just can't pick em up, like trash.
Established trails represent an agreement between hikers who want to leave the minimum amount of impact. Sure they're a guide as well for new hikers like me but I believe that most experienced hikers are responsible. I believe that even though they don't need them, they stay on them with that thought in mind.
If everybody made their own way based on their own selfish reasons there wouldn't be any trails, Just a bunch a shortcuts. skyline