snow creek

[FIGHT ON]

This hike, What's going on?
I don't know if I am more surprised or more disappointed.
What confuses me is why, well I am assuming that the ONLY way to access the start of the route you must trespass some private land.
I read on trip report on this hike and just about the whole thing was about how to avoid guards and dogs and where to hide etc. Has anyone ever tried getting permission from the people who own this land? Is there an alternate (legal) way to access the trailhead?
Or is this part of the thrill? Doing something wrong. Some kinda macho thing?
Making some statement? What is it?
I am sure each person weather they have hiked it or not has an opinion on this.
I am interested in each.
But I am particularly interested in the people who have done it and who currently have made future plans to do it again.
You can call me anything you want, I don't care, some moral freak or what ever, I've heard it all and it won't bother me. What I am interested in why?
Why you personally do this? What is your reason?
Me? Just to be fair I guess if you haven't guessed by now I am completely against making plans to go into any closed areas. My reason? Because it's closed. period. It doesn't matter what's on the other side or what's in there. I have talked about similar subjects and I mostly see opposition to my way of thinking. Is there anyone out there who agrees with me? Sign says keep out, so keep out because the sign says keep out!
You could put a billion dollars in there and I would not enter to get it. (especially if I knew 100% that I could get away with it) So forget about me.
What goes through your mind when you take that first step past that sign?
(I already know you think Hal so no need to comment. )
Thanks

When I saw Cy mention others plans this really bugged me.

[Perry]

It's just one of the most amazing experiences of my life! That's all. I heard that the water agency no longer grants permission to pass, as they used to in the past. And it's not private land as you said, but public land where the public is not allowed to be.

You know I trespass all the time, right? I can't do too much running on paved roads because of injury risk, and the desert is more fun. You may be on the wrong message board if that bothers you. I also swear a lot and drink coffee every day.

As far as philosophical conversations, you can only have a meaningful argument with someone if you have some type of common ground. Here are four schools of thought:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics

You follow the first; I'm more interested in the third and fourth. I doubt you'll read those links, but maybe other people reading this thread will find them interesting.

Here's a question for you... suppose a hiker is allergic to bees and he accidentally drops his epinephrine auto-injector on private land where he trespassed. Then you meet him on a public trail where he gets stun by a bee. Would you go retrieve his medication? If you don't, he would likely die. But you would have to trespass in order to save his life.

[FIGHT ON]

It's just one of the most amazing experiences of my life! That's all. I heard that the water agency no longer grants permission to pass, as they used to in the past. And it's not private land as you said, but public land where the public is not allowed to be.

This sounds similar to that Crystal Lake area.

You know I trespass all the time, right? I can't do too much running on paved roads because of injury risk, and the desert is more fun. You may be on the wrong message board if that bothers you. I also swear a lot and drink coffee every day.

Don't get me started on coffee stuff.
I did know you had done Snow Creek. But I don't know if you trespassed to do it. Are you sure you must trespass? Did you ever call them and ask? I left a message and haven't heard back yet. And I didn't know that you trespass all the time. Running on all parts of the desert is trespassing?
As far as swearing goes, that's a different subject. Decaf is ok with me but caffeine taken to improve performance in an athletic event isn't.

As far as philosophical conversations, you can only have a meaningful argument with someone if you have some type of common ground. Here are four schools of thought:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics


You follow the first; I'm more interested in the third and fourth. I doubt you'll read those links, but maybe other people reading this thread will find them interesting.

I'm not so sure I fall into any of those.

Here's a question for you... suppose a hiker is allergic to bees and he accidentally drops his epinephrine auto-injector on private land where he trespassed. Then you meet him on a public trail where he gets stun by a bee. Would you go retrieve his medication? If you don't, he would likely die. But you would have to trespass in order to save his life.

I already said I would save Hal's life! Doesn't that cover every life in the world?

My post? I think it asks a good question. There is plenty of talk about right and wrong throughout this forum on lots of subjects about what goes on up there in the mountains. Why not ask about this?
Hey! And you didn't answer the question about what goes through your mind when you take that first step into that off limits area.
I don't know what people think about this stuff.
It's part of this hike. It's a hiking forum.
Thanks for your response Perry!

[halhiker]

There was a big high wall that tried to stop me;
The sign was painted, it said Private Property
But on the back side it didn't say nothing;
That side was made for you and me.

SING IT!

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California to the New York Island
From the Redwood Forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and me.

[halhiker]

[quote="FIGHT ON"] asking Perry
"I did know you had done Snow Creek. But I don't know if you trespassed to do it. Are you sure you must trespass? Did you ever call them and ask? I left a message and haven't heard back yet. "

(Rest of post snipped).

Yes. In order to do Snow Creek one has to trespass. There is not other access point. About fifteen years ago the Desert Water Agency quit issuing permits to enter the Snow Creek area. Before that, permits were issued to do the entire climb or just to hike up to the Falls.

The reason they gave was to ensure the purity of the watershed. If they did not allow people into the watershed, they could forgo some testing and purification required by the EPA, thus saving them lots of $$$.

Of course, there was no evidence of human contamination previous to this action nor has there been since (despite numerous "trespassers" entering the Snow Creek drainage each year). It is merely another fine example of bureaucratic action for the public good.

At least that's the story I heard.

[KathyW]

I noticed this over at the San Gabriel Mountains Discussion Forum:

FIGHT ON
Banned
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 1302
Location: Pasadena

They must have finally gotten tired of the Crystal Lake, GU....etc. posts.

[FIGHT ON]

Well I got an answer.
This is what I got.



It is legal to use Pacific Crest Trail, which goes through the Snow
Creek area, to reach the peak. Crossing Desert Water Agency property to
reach the peak is not permitted. Desert Water Agency owns one square
mile of property and it is permanently closed to hiking as it is a
source of public water supply.

If hiker(s) are spotted, they will be asked to leave by our resident
caretaker. If the hiker(s) are uncooperative, the Sheriff's Department
is called.

Mike Bergan
Desert Water Agency

The PCH goes through the snow creek area? or on the part that is closed?

Does anybody know the truth here?

[halhiker]

The PCT leaves the Snow Creek area just south of Snow Creek Village and ascends San Jacinto via a ridge to the west of Snow Creek. It is a much longer hike and offers no technical challenge to the mountaineer. There are some of the longest switchbacks on earth on this section of trail.

The Snow Creek climb ascends the ridge between Snow Creek and Falls Creek and reaches the snow tongue (snow permitting) just past Coldwater Canyon. There is NO access to Snow Creek via the PCT.

As for the closure of Snow Creek, it sounds like my previous answer is spot on. The canyon is officially closed to ensure water purity. Permits were issued until some bureaucrat decided a few climbers a year were endangering the public safety. Of course, just so long as the Water Agency is able to say the area is closed, a few "trespassers" won't affect its standing with the EPA.

So Snow Creek should be treated, IMHO, like gays in the military. "Don't ask, don't tell".

[Perry]

Hal, that is funny!

Fight On, here most of your answer:

It's just one of the most amazing experiences of my life!

As far as my exact thoughts when I entered the land, I was watching to see if anyone came down the road and thinking about where we could hide in the small ravines. I was also admiring the mountain that we were about to climb. Don't think that I'm required to answer all of your questions. I don't want to get carpal tunnel, and I have better things to do with my life than participate in arguments that drag on and on...

[Perry]

The canyon is officially closed to ensure water purity. Permits were issued until some bureaucrat decided a few climbers a year were endangering the public safety. Of course, just so long as the Water Agency is able to say the area is closed, a few "trespassers" won't affect its standing with the EPA.

So if a climber pisses in the water but no one sees it, did it really happen? An interesting fact is that the Tramway has a septic drain field at 8,400' in Long Valley. In theory that drains into Tahquitz Canyon, unless there are cracks in the mountain beneath, causing some of the snow melt of Long Valley to feed springs in Chino Canyon. I don't know the answer to that, but it would be extremely ironic if that were true...