C2C Topo Map Question

[Perry]

The C2C web site I put up was in response to the increasing publicity and rescues in 2003, and the death in early 2004. The alternative is that people would Google "cactus to clouds" and find out about it some other way (usually just getting directions to the trailheads).

The message board lets people find out about conditions and meet hiking partners. Isn't it nice to know whether Skyline is icy? Imagine if James had checked the message board and noticed people talking about the need for ice axe and crampons. That probably would have saved his life. Isn't it nice to talk about mountains instead of the stupid little things that most people talk about? (food, judging people by their cars and clothes and how they look, dumb gossip, and people putting on charismatic facades)

Overall, I think outdoor recreation has a positive effect on society that outweighs the negative consequences. When I hear people's opinions to the contrary, I also consider what motivates them to hold or express those opinions. Some people are not concerned with individual pursuit of happiness. If I couldn't climb mountains and run trails, it would be hard to go on living and wake up every day. The nice thing about mountains is that they are open to anybody, regardless of their social status, income, what car they drive, what clothes they wear. None of that stuff matters, and no jealous person can take that away from us.

In my opinion, one of the best ways to reduce rescues on Skyline would be to have elevation signs every 1,000 feet. People don't like being told not to do something, but reality is persuasive, especially if people draw their own conclusions. 2,000-feet and 3,000-feet elevation signs would scare some people to go back down, especially if they have used up a lot of water. Elevation signs at the trailheads would let people know that they have only climbed 1,500 feet when they reach the 2,000 sign.

Thoughts?

[AlanK]

cactus2clouds -- Just to make my position clear, I think that this is a great message board, which is why I am a regular participant. Keep up the good work!

I believe that my comments relating to GPS are in line with yours. The first time I did C2C I was completely unfamiliar with the trail and was doing it with my 12 year old son on a late-May day that had a high of 112 in Palm Springs. I knew that we were commiting to going all the way to the tram (actually, the peak, as it turned out) because it was neither desirable nor particularly safe to descend into that heat. For that reason, I had a map of the trail (along with the requisite navigational skills to use it) and a GPS with waypoints for the route. The GPS stayed in my pack, but I was happy to have the extra margin of safety.

So, am I willing to share GPS waypoints with strangers planning C2C for the first time? Yopu bet I am!

[cynthia23]

I dunno, AlanK. In a way, your story illustrates what I am getting at--my concerns with safety, especially. Had you not had the GPS and map, would you have been willing to risk doing C2C for the first time in late May at 112? Maybe not, and that might have been a good thing, actually. What you did was really quite risky. The real dangers of Skyline are not in getting lost, but about people not fully understanding how brutal and dangerous it is. Your story could have gone horribly, horribly wrong.

GPS, etc. in this terrain give a false sense of security/knowledge. Magikwalt's question illustrates that: I know that you should never turn left and try to shortcut up the other chutes not because of a map or GPS, but because several experienced Skyliners personally told me that, sharing with me the stories of the many rescues and taking me to look down the gnarly technical faces. Technological knowledge gives false security: there is no substitution here for personal mentoring. And technological knowledge definitely can't supply conditioning or fitness, which, after all, is primarily what Skyline demands, more than any other quality.

Some of you seem to misunderstand Guest and me as being concerned about Skyline getting "too busy". This is not my concern. Even on its busiest days, one barely sees a soul, and it is always a pleasant diversion from the torment! My concern is about people getting INJURED and Skyline getting DAMAGED. Here's my point, more clearly, again: if GPS or mapping info is not easily available (which it wasn't, for me) then first-timers will attempt to hook up personally with an experienced hiker (which is what I did.) and hike with them. This conservative, start-slow, apprentice or mentor type approach has two major benefits: safety, and the preservation of the trail. The experienced hiker can keep a wary eye on the inexperienced one, and can tell or warn when bonking is imminent or turn them back (in fact, I have done this with first-timers). And, secondly, the experienced hiker can educate the first-timer on the ecology or preservation of the trail: that we don't cut the trail because it is so easily eroded, that we take our toilet paper and plastic bottles because they won't degrade here, that we don't spray orange trail markers on rocks. (These things may seem obvious to us, but some people may not understand how fragile this desert terrain is and that it has much less "bounce-back" quality than a forest, etc.) If it is a little bit "difficult" to get directions, etc, then the flakier people are likely to give up; whoever is left is more likely to be serious, wilderness-savvy, and have taken the time to know what they are getting into. It is NOT about "us" excluding "them" or the trail getting "too busy".

Such a conservative or "secretive" approach may strike outsiders as extreme, but Skyline is a very unusual trail: first, it is very fragile, ecologically rare, and could easily be harmed. second, it is quite dangerous and can and has injured or even killed people. I personally know an extremely experienced mountaineer who very nearly died on the trail two years ago.

For all these reasons, I don't believe we should be mapping or making easily available trail directions. A few well-placed markers are fine, but otherwise, let's do all we can to encourage first-timers to hook up with others, rather than sending them off on their own, quite possibly to their doom. That's why this message board is such a great thing ... it allows people to find a mentor or partner.

I hope this clarifies my point of view, and do know that my disagreement is not meant to convey disrespect for any of you wonderful folks, some of whom I know and adore personally-- rather just my concern for the preservation of this amazing trail (which I know you all share ...)

Peace and Otter Pops ....

[AlanK]

Cynthia -- I respect your view, although I obviously don't agree completely. I have been on this message board since it started and I have not seen a consistent message that urges first timers to do the hike with someone more experienced. I have certainly seen offers and arrangements made. I think that's great. But I certainly don't think that this hike cannot be done by experienced hikers on their own. That is obviously done all the time, as we see from these pages.

Regarding my first time hike, I obviously did not need the GPS or rely on it. It was just one additional margin of safety. I based my decision to do the hike on excellent and detailed descriptions by other pepole, study of topo maps, and a map of the route in which I had great confidence. I knew that the route is quite straightforward until the last section. Had we been unable to find our way up the rocky part (which was not particularly difficult), we could have waited at 7000' or so until it was cool enough to descend. We had plenty of water for that. Sure, things can always go wrong, but we were well prepared and, by hindsight, I do not agree that we took any great risk. As for the delicacy of the trail, I appreciate that but do not believe that we had any more impact on the area than experienced locals do. I have done C2C 8 times now and the only thing that was really different about that first time was the excitement of a new route.

I agree that it is best for first timers to go with someone familiar with the route. I agree that this board helps with that. I am happy to encourage it. But there are people who will decide to go it alone. I am happy to pass along advice and information to such people. Certainly, part of my advice is to make sure they know what they're getting into and have the experience to deal with it!

[magikwalt]

This portion of Perry's post sums up my belief. Life is about living not about not dying. I appreciate that some may find stepping off the path as a serious risk but that doesn't apply to all. If everyone gets on the C2C/Skyline path and never varies then it does become an outdoor treadmill.

These same types of back and forth discussions have taken place in every national park this country has ever had. How about the post concerning not supporting the tram because it shouldn't be there. What the heck is the use in setting aside land for recreation if you don't allow anyone to use it.

At some future time "things" will be built in the middle of the PCT and the C2C. Whether its from lightning or propane torch a fire will run up that hillside at some point. There is a very logical arguement for allowing fires to have at some of the dead tree areas throughout SoCal and Arizona.

I think the elevation markers would be a good addition to the trail. Whoever added the brown plastic trail marker above flat rock showing the trail moves left probably saved a problem or two. Someone could easily head a little right and find themselves on an ugly ledge.

Experienced and inexperienced adventurist die doing some of the exact same things. I agree with Alan that people need to look at where they are going and what they are doing and then take what they believe are the appropriate measures. I also agree that this board gives those folks some very good information with which to make sound decisions on.

I thank you for the "don't turn left" advice. I understand that some folks had to be rescued over there. B after evaluating my life's experiences, training and mental attitude I would rather go look for myself. Whether its hiking from Indian Canyon south to Hwy 79 without knowing the trail or going up to the summit of San Gorgorino the day after C2C to the summit, I would prefer to do it alone or with another adventurist rather than waiting for the tour.

Happy adventuring!

[mattytreks]

As the original poster of this thread, I'd like to thank all of you who have given some great input and feedback. I suppose another question I have would piggy-back on magikwalt's comments:

Is this trail easy to follow from trailhead to Tram Station (when there is little to no snow)? Are there certain "areas" of the trail that will be harder to navigate and follow than I could have possibly expected? I almost feel as if I am heading out into nothing. I just want to know if there are places on the trail where I might come to some "fork in the trail" of sorts, and just not know which way to go. You get the idea...my main concern is following the correct route.

To be honest I am very prepared on any big hikes I take and use all necessary precautions, including taking a two-way radio, more than enough water, first aid supplies...etc. It's just I have never encountered a hike quite like this, where there are no trail maps.

On a lighter note, I have been training and getting ready for C2C. There's a local peak here in San Diego called Cowles Mountain. The most direct route to the summit is 1.5 miles and about 960 feet in elevation gain...so its a fairly steep trail. I've been jogging to the top with 5 pound leg weights on each leg, about 2-3 times a week. I already feel myself gaining strength and stamina. I also will probably hit up Vivian Creek and Baldy Village trails soon to really finish preparations. Those are some real elevation gainers! Based on the recommendations by Perry and other forum-goers, it sounds like the best month to attempt C2C is in October.

[magikwalt]

My first time up I was alone and not really planning to go to the tram. Around 5,000 ft I found I was feeling good and had a 128oz of fluids left. Talk about over kill. I found my way to the top without any real difficulties. Depending on where you start you will find the following trail problems and these are only my opinion of course:

Museum start will subject you to several little "alternate routes" due to the stairmaster crowd who look to create direct routes to cut off traverses and switchbacks. These are for the most part avoidable but won't cost you too much in energy or get you too far off track. One point "on the trail" does move you down and then back up so don't let a <-> double direction white arrow confuse you. I usually will blindly stumble up at least one of them while moving up under headlamp. Once you make it to the picnic tables move past them on the left and straight up the dusty trail. Follow it down the otherside staying right past the rock cairn. At this point the famous trail rock painted with white words is visable up ahead. If you are standing and reading the rock the route is left and up.

Ramon Rd start with a walk up a dog pile filled path to the base of the hill. Here I like to turn left and move immediately uphill still others prefer the road to the right. This is the route I prefer for early morning starts since I'm still asleep for the first 10 minutes or so. Following it is easy and pretty much you just stay left and moving up. After about 35-40 minutes of hiking you will move up a short incline to a rock cairn (same one described as from the museum) and turn left. You should be able to see the painted trail rock/bouder at that point. Again move towards the trail rock staying left and continuing up.

Above this point I find nothing confusing until you move past the area called Flat Rock (this is an area of water smoothed grey granite that is dry and about 20'x30'). From here to a brown fiberglass trail sign I seem to find little openings to step off trail on and for about 10-15ft they look good. Actually I'm so tired that I'm not looking. At the fiberglass trail sign (great place to snack and watch the tram go by) the arrow points left towards a downed tree which you need to step over and the trail is obvious again.

Once you pass the traverses and arrive at the base of Coffman's Crag you start moving up on a trail that to my old eyes seems to disappear and then reappear right after I've scambled up missing a section of it. This is the area that ZippetyDude and I were talking about building rock piles to help the old feeble guys like me. Once you start up its about 300-350ft of elevation and you pop out into the fabled land of flat ground again.