Heart Rate Monitor

[magikwalt]

As Zippetydude blew past Chuck and I last Saturday we noticed he carried very little but was using a heart rate monitor. As we are interested in pushing our time on C2C down into the 6 hour range (6:59 counts right?) I am hoping that someone from the marathon/ultramarathon ilk jump in and educate us on your equipment preferences. Stan's looked to be wired and recording so I doubt its as simple as strapping on a Garmin watch.

I have gathered from the cross chat that we have more than a few exceptional athletes who visit on the site and would like to hear thier views on the various products they are using. A guy jogging on the Lykken trail described Perry's level as not quite human in how fast he covers ground.

[Perry]

Funny! I am very human, and some days are better than others. These days I usually don't wear a heart rate monitor because it requires more effort to expand the lungs and take deep breaths with that elastic chest strap. Back when I used one, I learned something important. Hard tempo workouts between 15 and 60 minutes raise heart rate for extended periods of time and produce huge gains in aerobic fitness. Short intervals do not (for me). I could run 2-minute intervals so hard that I felt like collapsing, and I still could not get my heart rate as high as a 5 to 20-minute interval. I would be sore as hell, risk development of injury, but not see improvements in running ability as a result of these short intense workouts. Anything shorter than 15 minutes does not seem to make me faster.

For something as long as Skyline here are some general rules:
1. Long climbs are mandatory.
2. Consistent training (at least 4 days per week) helps a lot.
3. Hard aerobic workouts once a week (15 to 60 minutes) are better than just easy workouts.
4. Intervals are a waste of time and energy unless you have already been doing 1, 2, and 3. Way over-rated I think.

Hope that helps. Not everybody's physiology is exactly the same, but I believe these general principles apply to most people.

[zippetydude]

Hi Walt.

First, I would agree with that guy - I've felt for some time now that Perry was either a mutant or an alien. (Sorry Perry.)

About the HR monitors. There are, in my experience, 3 basic kinds.



1. Beginner models. These generally display your heart rate while you run, and give you an average and max number when you're done. They're relatively cheap ($50+ on sale) and easy to use.

Some don't require a chest strap, but then they only display your HR when you stop and press a certain button. This seems a little impractical to me.

One quirky side to the chest strap type is that, since it's generally pretty warm out there on the trail, I usually end up taking my shirt off at some point. This has given me a tan line, and my daughters tell me with much embarrassment "Dad, it looks like you have a tan from a bra strap!" When I point out that very few girls wear just a bra out in the sun, they respond that it could also be a bathing suit top, but that "boys shouldn't have a tan line like that". So, I get to embarrass my kids - a worthwhile cause if I ever heard one.



2. Advanced models - These generally keep a running record of your heart rate, then you can download the data and see a graph of your run on your computer at home. My favorite of this type is the Polar S625i. It's just as easy to use as the beginner models, a lot more fun, and it keeps a record for you in the computer of every workout you do, what your HR was, the date, time, duration ... I love it. That's what I had on when you saw me. Cost is around $200.

3. Advanced models with GPS - The Garmin 305 Forerunner does what the above models do, and adds in GPS. Real cool, and I love the fact that the GPS isn't a big clunky thing - it's worn like a watch, so you can always see your elevation, distance, speed, HR, etc. I have one of these too, but it's not as practical for most uses, since the battery works for 10 hours, then needs recharging, whereas the Polar battery works for about 3 years. Cost of these is $350 in the store, but I got one brand new online for $248.


Once you get one and fiddle around a little bit, I would also really recommend you get a book on HR training to zero in on how to train effectively. I've been using a specific method for a few weeks now, and it's made a huge difference. Last Saturday, I beat my previous best time (even including our brief chat) by one minute and, upon reviewing the HR data, found that the training has made my heart more efficient. To give you some idea how much it has helped, my previous ascent had required almost 35000 heart beats, Saturday took only a little over 30,000. That's over 4000 fewer beats than it had taken on the previous ascent. Put simply, it really made it feel easier. Apparently the guy who wrote the book I'm using is considerably smarter than me!


Incidentally, Perry's experience with intervals is backed by studies - you can learn all about how to use various types of training (including interval training that will actually help) if you read up on it.

Hope this helps.

z

[magikwalt]

Thank you to both you guys for your posts. I've been working to get back to a former self from long ago. Used to run triathalons back in the early 80's which was about 50lbs ago. An athletic life was a lot easier as a Marine than it is as a desk bound 308lbs manager. Since working out on SanJac I have managed to shed about 40lbs (down to 268lbs) and bettered my 11/18/06 ascent by 1:06. A small tear in the achilles didn't help but working with hiking poles has allowed me to get back up there.

Given a family and a full time job I don't want to be hacking away at my goals. I did notice the Garmin Forerunner 301 and the associated software and MB website for training. I'm a bit of a tech head and I think it will help keep me tracking and focused.

Thanks for the training and gear tips. Stan, thanks for the lesson in what going lite on the trail looks like. Perry, thanks for hosting one of the best sites I've seen in a long time. Hope to see you guys up there soon.

Walt

[Perry]

Thanks Walt. Another thing is doing steep hills instead of flat jogs. Most people can maintain a higher heart rate, and it's more training specific in using the same muscles as those used in Skyline. Flat running does not use the quads as much.

[magikwalt]

I picked up one of the units recommended by Z and which falls in with some of my other Garmin products. After comparing a few treadmill trips against my evening outings on the Lykken above Mesquite, Perry's observations are right on target. Even using the max elevation setting on the treadmill doesn't come close to the trip up from Mesquite. My body loves flat/even terrain.

On the treadmill its over 20 minutes of hiking to get the HR past 150 bpm whereas 6 minutes on the trail accomplish the same. Since I start on the road closer to Palm Canyon it takes about 3 minutes to gain the trail. After that the incline grade of the trail does its job. Keeping the HR in a particular zone is a balancing act with the quads.

The software that comes with the unit provides enough stat details and charting to keep it interesting. Looking at the correlation between the incline grade and HR sure explains why the upper section of C2C kills me. I'm hoping to figure out a HR zone that allows me to do the upper section w/o stopping. Probably 1 step every 10 seconds should do it. My last trip up C2C was 7:40 so I'd like to carve that down to under 7 hours next time.

Zippety you mentioned a book. After looking online there are several to chose from. One in particular you like?

Thanks again to both of you for the info and helping me to pickup the pace. I really appreciate it.

[magikwalt]

I now have 16 days of using the Garmin HR Monitor with their training software. I love it. It has highlighted several parts of my training that were weak and time consuming. It has also allowed me to see changes that are occuring inside me that aren't recorded on a weight scale.

In two weeks I have lowered my time up Mesquite Rd to the picnic tables by just under 5 minutes and have done that with a lower Avg HR and Max HR. During that time my weight has remained within a 5 lbs range. The lower HR numbers mean that my heart is getting larger and pumping more blood with each stroke. The ability to get a picture of whats happening inside me is neat. It tells me when I'm dogging it on the trail and has provided proof that the training is still working even when the inches don't appear to be coming off.

I have the book recommended by ZippetyDude and endorsed by Ellen and have made it through only about 2 chapters but already I have gone back to reviewing some of the data I recorded when I first got the HR monitor. In the last 15 day my resting HR has dropped about 8 BPM. I am also beginning to track my HR at completion vs 1 minute after stopping. The book calls it the Recovery HR and its important. That section will have to wait until tomorrow though.

I have agreed to go with a friend who wants to summit San Jacinto on a Friday and San Gorgonio via the South Fork Trail the next day. I still have until May 4th to prepare. I figure to do Skyline/C2C this Saturday and then hit San Gorgonio the following weekend. I've never been over there so I want to hike it once before the doubleheader.

Anyone done the San Gorgonio South Fork trail and wanting to compare it with C2C?

[zippetydude]

Hi Walt. Excellent work with your hr monitor. It adds a little fun thinking back over the backcountry adventure when you get back home, doesn't it?

I've done San G via South Fork quite a few times, and find that, compared to Skyline, it is different in several ways.

1. It is pure forest, no desert terrain at all. I love that, and do this trail much more during the warmer months when Skyline is too hot.

2. It is much higher altitude, so you'll probably notice the thinness of the air, especially above 11,000 feet.

3. It is not steep, very runnable except for the section from South Fork Meadows up to Dollar Lake saddle, which is a bit steeper and more rocky than the rest of the trail.

4. It takes me about an hour less to peak San G than to go museum to tram, but remember on San G that still leaves the return trip.

5. I have found that the return trip takes only a fraction of the time that it takes to get up to the peak. Figure about 2/3 of the ascent time for descending.

6. You sound like you're looking for increasing challenges. The San G wilderness offers wonderful ways to add to a given route. I first went South Fork to the wilderness boundary, then to Dry Lake, then to the Peak, then went to the peak via Forsee Creek, then finally started in Angelus Oaks and did the San Bernardino Peak trail across the ridge and up San G, then came back the same route. You can build up your challenges here, step by step, and spend every second in beautiful forest as you do so.

7. Finally, the wildlife is different. Skyline scares me with its rattlers. I've never seen a snake in the San G wilderness. But, I feel a little spooked in San G during night runs, as I have seen bears and mountain lions during daytime runs, and don't know what's watching me out there in the dark...

But, welcome to San G. It's not so dry and rugged as San J, and offers a different form of beauty, equal to San J, but neither suffers by comparison. They are each uniquely beautiful in their own ways.

z