tram station leaving people to die

[cynthia23]

Yes, Zip, you are always the voice of reason! And you're right, it's interesting how this thread has generated a lot of passion.

I certainly agree that people are way too cavalier about taking groups out in storms--no argument there. Smart people hope for the best but plan for the worst.

But my concern is less about the specifics of the episode than what it tells me about PSAT's overall emergency preparedness. As a regular tram user who sometimes takes up kids and old people, this episode is disturbing because it strongly suggests PSAT doesn't have contingency plans already on hand--their response was obviously poorly thought-out and seemed almost panic-driven. They shouldn't be operating off the cuff. To me, this is not about wilderness preparedness, but about a large organization--like an airline or hotel--that doesn't seem to have done adequate emergency preparation planning.

Again, what will happen when--NOT IF--the big earthquake and/or fire hits? How is it possible that they didn't have a pre-existing plan for a severe windstorm forcing early closure? They're on top of a freaking mountain. If they didn't have a plan for a severe windstorm, they don't have a plan for ANYTHING. And that's scary. Every day they haul up hundreds of tourists. Yes, be personally responsible, but I like that hotels in America have to have fire sprinklers and that airlines have to have regular maintenance. In just the same way, I want someone to demand that PSAT spend the time and money to hire an outside consultant to develop evacuation and shelter plans for the hundreds of people who daily put their lives in their hands. Anything less, and someday there will be a mass tragedy.

[phydeux]

I work in EH&S, including making emergency plans, and I'd bet a tram ticket the PSTramway does have an emergency plan. From the reports it seems someone in management noticed the wind speeds were getting close to the tramway's limits of safe operation, the decision was made to stop operations, the Tram and State Park staffs got everyone in Long Valley and the Upper Tram Station down off the mountain, and the one ranger stayed to meet those still in the wilderness. Not a perfect plan (but none are), and they'll probably need to do an incident review to improve their plans (Tram and State Park) in preparation for the next extreme wind event. As for those left on the mountain, as mentioned above, you have to be prepared when storm conditions are in the forcast (as they were the day before the event). If in that same situation I would have throught it safer to stay down near the ranger station in the "Muleskinner Motel" rather than up in the tram station on that exposed ridge where high winds (and flying debris) could severly impact the building itself.

[Andy]

And yet another hypothetical...

What if I'd day hiked over from Idyllwild expecting the tram to be open during its normal hours for a ride off the mountain? They advertized being open till 9pm...

I see no negligence, just some sub-par preparation all around. I do however think that a permanent, emergency shelter of some sort could be created...even if it's the old mule shed. Just something basic where a troubled hiker, drawn to the tram area for help, could wait out a storm and at least find some dirty wool blankets and a dry cot. That said, I would think this would fall under the auspices of the Park services and not the tram.

[cynthia23]

I think phydeux (btw, what is EH and S? )is correct that the tram station isn't very safe--to me it looks very vulnerable in the event of an earthquake or another windstorm. I agree with Andy that PSAT ought to think about where they plan to shelter people in another emergency event, and consider maybe building something down in the valley. But I'd disagree with phydeux that they had a pre-existing plan, because it seems clear they didn't. If they had a plan, why didn't it include some idea of what to do about people--hikers or tourists--left behind in the event of an emergency evacuation? "Let the ranger deal with them" or "maybe they can shelter in that old collapsing mule shed, now let's get the hell out of dodge," isn't a plan, but evidence of last-minute thinking. I don't disagree with PSAT's decison to shut down or evacuate the tram station--I'm simply boggled by the fact that they had no clear provision, ahead of time, for how to cope with the people inevitably left behind. I mean, in all these years of operation, did no one up there in management ever think, "hm. Someday there might be an emergency like a storm or fire and we'd have to flee. What happens to the tourists who are left behind?" That's where I do see negligence.

[phydeux]

EH&S = Environmental, Health & Safety

The Tram building's base looks like its solidly attached to the rocks, its just the building itself would be subject to damage by debris flying around in +100 mph winds. Same for a tram car that might be exposed to the winds, with the added possibility of them becoming tangled in their cables, which would REALLY strand anyone left at the top. Better to stop the Tram, let hikers with their emergency skills and 10 essentials (we're ALWAYS prepared, aren't we? ) shelter in place and wait out the storm, then come down safely after the Tram has been inspected for damage. I've been in some pretty bad situations and this wouldn't have been unusual to me.

[bobmc]

To zippitydude


To counter your points.

1 this was not a little day hike as you suggested. It should be classified as winter mountaineering and you should be prepared to spend the night in the forecast conditions.

2 If you would have read my post you could have inferred that I would not take people up there if a storm was forecast.

3 If I owned a house at said hypothetical location. I would surely let them stay. Then I would lecture them all night so that they would never go out unprepared again or they would become so annoyed with my rant that they would gladly sleep in the the garage.

Mt point is If you are going into the wilderness you have to meet it on its terms don't expect anyone to bail you out.

I don't know what the tram policy is but I do think that the tram should have a disclaimer that when there are storms or dangerous weather conditions forecast that they may not be able to take people back down if they wander into the wilderness boundary. Which, I believe is less than a mile away from the tram station.

[zippetydude]

bobmc: Great answer! I like topics like this because it's fun to hear other perspectives.

With regard to your post:

1. The people I do San J with think of it as a quick, easy hike, even in the snow. The people I usually go with can do it in less than 3 hours round trip. That's a quick day hike.

2. I love it. I can't fight you on this point.

3. Dang it! You've got me 2/3! Great answer!

Hope to see you out there on the trail one of these days. You got me 2/3, so I owe you a cold one at the tram bar.

z

[neverwashasbeen]

Zip, I don't think you can claim # 1, time and intensity are 2 seperate things.

[bluerail]

Can I get a beer too?

[Cy Kaicener]

This is what could happen if the tram would be running in high winds.
http://www.blogcrystal.com/2011/02/13/g ... -practice/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xegUBIY6xZI
Uploaded by RobV1976 on Jan 4, 2010

On the 2nd of Jan 2010 c1530hrs a gondola between Matterhorn Glacier Paradise and Trockner Steg broke down due to ice on the cables and strong winds (the ambient temperature was -28C). We were stranded in the car for over 1.5 hours after which time Air Zermatt performed a heli evac of 6 people at a time down to the station at Trockner Steg.

17 likes, 0 dislikes

Uploader Comments (RobV1976)

Whoa! That looks quite fun! Maybe not worth the 1,5h wait. When did you get your equipment back from the condola?

ruff80s 1 year ago

@ruff80s Yeah, the heli ride in the end made the waiting in -28 well worth it Thankfully none of us had ski gear with us (we were there for sightseeing only). I think if we did, we wouldn't have got them back until the next day, which is when they managed to get the gondola moving again.

RobV1976 1 year ago

Wow what an amazing video! I was there on January 4 and thankfully I didn't get stranded.

kimblrr 1 year ago

Thanks for the comment - sounds like you were lucky We actually left on Jan 3rd so missed you by a day.

RobV1976 1 year ago

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same we were there the 4th to the 12th good thing it didn't happen to us either. Though i think I would've enjoyed the helo ride.

diggydirt1982 1 year ago





Another place we need a shelter is between Flat Rock and the Traverse at 7400 feet