tram station leaving people to die

[Zé]

I'm still waiting for people with kids to tell me if their kids went up there, and were left outside and suffered severe injuries / death, that they would say its their kids own fault

[wb]

This has been a terrific exchange of ideas and both sides appear to have very valid points. Once the thread morphs from an examination of the actual circumstances to a "what if" scenario, we have a whole different ballgame. If, for example, children were stranded by the wind and unprepared for the weather, a potential life threatening situation (and a new variable to what actually happened), it is probable that additional variables would have also been introduced into the circumstances, such as a phone call to 911. If the stranded hikers ever truly felt that their lives were threatened, they were only one phone call away from a rescue. The fact that a call was not made to 911 tells me that the situation may have been very uncomfortable, but that it was not life threatening in their minds. That being said, the original point of the thread - the potentially reckless and irresponsible decision to offer no assistance to PSAT passengers stranded on the mountain - appears to have hit its mark.

[tinaballina]

This has been a terrific exchange of ideas and both sides appear to have very valid points. Once the thread morphs from an examination of the actual circumstances to a "what if" scenario, we have a whole different ballgame. If, for example, children were stranded by the wind and unprepared for the weather, a potential life threatening situation (and a new variable to what actually happened), it is probable that additional variables would have also been introduced into the circumstances, such as a phone call to 911. If the stranded hikers ever truly felt that their lives were threatened, they were only one phone call away from a rescue. The fact that a call was not made to 911 tells me that the situation may have been very uncomfortable, but that it was not life threatening in their minds. That being said, the original point of the thread - the potentially reckless and irresponsible decision to offer no assistance to PSAT passengers stranded on the mountain - appears to have hit its mark.

How would a helicopter pick people up in 105mph winds, even if 911 would have been called?
Not for nothing but people are people, does the age really make a difference in this case? I am just saying....

[bluerail]

Not to be off topic, but I believe the Indians and blm are at work drafting a deal.

[tinaballina]

Not to be off topic, but I believe the Indians and blm are at work drafting a deal.

what do you mean "deal"

[bluerail]

started another thread with it.....a letter sent out among the cvhc and desert trails

[bobmc]

To all those who comment on my previous post.

Sorry I don't buy that when they returned to the station they where out of the wilderness. They went in to the wilderness !!! THey should have been prepared PERIOD. There is no imaginary line you cross to safety.

HELLO storms were forecast for that weekend!!!!!! Who is organizing these things. I lead many hike to the wilderness and take it very seriously.

My motto is: To have the Knowledge and skills to get out of a bad situation and the sense to not walk into one!!!!!!!

The expectation that society will protect you in all situations is a thin veneer.
Human systems fail. I am sure that the tram company decided that it wasn't safe to leave personnel at the station since they feared the the tram wouldn't be functional for days. The people who operate it certainly weren't prepared to hike out. And there would be no way to to require someone to stay.

Bottom line however they got there They were entering winter mountaineering conditions in a storm no less!!! They should have been prepared!!!!!!!!

I have been camping in 0 degree weather with similar winds I slept in an igloo we built It was 32 degrees inside the igloo with -10 wind chill outside other than having cold feet we did just fine.

The point is It was unsafe to operate the tram or leave people at the station. The ranger stayed to help them get secure. Sorry, he didn't have hot cocoa and ghost stories to tell.

If you have a heart attack up on San Jacinto You are dead. they cannot get to you in time. and I actually know someone that this happened to.

For all you "peakbaggers" get a grip. I have commented or emailed the organizers on many hiking group sites when I have seen a potentially dangerous situation ready to unfold and get a lackadaisical response because they are on some ego trip.

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR EGOS ON WILDERNESS TRIPS.

I have cancelled many group events because I didn't want to put the group at risk. Which clearly was the case here.

This is a big problem with hiking clubs with large wilderness areas adjacent to major metro areas that are relatively easy hike during spring and summer months but are dangerous during winter. People go into them thinking it is no big deal. But it is.

Why do we have to go through this every year.

Even a hike that normally takes two liters of water can use 4 or 5 liters if the temperature is a few degrees higher. Which typically happens in late spring. I have to insist that people carry extra water. But there is always the person who doesn't want to listen because of their ego.

Sure you could always get a court to find someone at fault. The problem here is that there is always multiple decisions made that affect the outcome of any situation. A different decision at any point would have changed what happened. But the first decision was to go up in winter storm conditions and not fully preparing for them.

[bluefintu]

Hey Bobmc,
I totally agree with you. We took up some boy scouts the week before, the weather was cold with light snow and wind. For us everything worked out because we we're prepared. Our water bottle's we're freezing, but we had lots of extra fuel for snow melt for drinking.

I think (here I go again, thinking), everyone should be prepared for the worst. I knew the weather was going to be somewhat bad for us, then when I got home, I knew the next weekend was going to be very bad. The Tram guy had called for very nasty weather witch came true. I always wonder if that tram ride down will work when I want to go down.

Yes , that was bad for the tram operation to just close, without warning? And with limited options to stay somewhere? I'm just happy everyone got out safe.
Don

[zippetydude]

This sure seems to be a thread that brings out strong opinions!

bob, I don't think law suits are warranted either, but then, I hardly ever condone that sort of litigation when no real harm was done.

On the other hand, these people were very reasonably expecting the tram to be operating when they got back. Let me reframe the question and see what you would do.

Let's say you personally have a big cozy cabin up in the mountains. Further, let's say you own a shuttle bus that takes people up the mountain to a trailhead right beside your house. In essence, these people are making your mortgage payment for you, so you appreciate their business. One day, a huge snow storm is due to come in. The people come down early to make sure they avoid the storm, but it arrives earlier and stronger than anyone expected. The roads are closed and you are unable to safely transport them back down.

Now, do you tell them to sleep in your garage? Or do you invite them into your home? My guess is you would invite them in, just like I would. And I believe that is what has ignited the flame for a lot of folks. I'm not fiery like some of the posts that I've seen because I look at the past record of the tram operators and staff and see a very good history. But neither do I think people going out for a little day hike should be carrying every possible item they might need for an overnight stay.

My guess is that if the tram management had realized the situation would turn out like it did, they would have asked one of their good people to stay up at the station and allow people to come in for shelter. I believe they, like the hikers, were simply caught off guard.

But anyway, what say you about my scenario? Would you invite them in?

z

[bluerail]

There's always gotta be a sensible one in the group.....and of course, its you.