Fluorescent Orange Dots...too much for one person

[Ed]

Ken,

To clarify matters, it was me, not Scott, who said

"Yes, I would want to apply 'those rules' to everyone, everywhere, at all times."

Which you would have seen if you read people's posts more carefully.

And I meant it.

Your pettifogging about special rules for legally-defined Wilderness Areas is nonsense. In general, those rules are no man-made structures, no wheeled or motorized vehicles, and no low-altitude overflights by aircraft. Rules and practices regarding 'wilderness ethics' - don't litter, don't cut switchbacks, don't deface rocks, etc. - are not limited to legally-defined wilderness areas, and were widely accepted long before the Wilderness Act of 1964. If you don't know this, you are ignorant. If you do, you are simply being obnoxious.

[kennethwr]

Hope that those that are attempting to remove the sight of orange paint on rocks along the Skyline Trail have found a good solution. Thought I'd offer a few thoughts about solutions and why one may work better than others.
Not all paint is the same. The type of orange paint used could have been an enamel, lacquer, epoxy, or other compound. A solvent like lacquer thinner or acetone may work well removing some types of paint (enamel or lacquer), but not others, thus the differences in experience with different removal methods that have been offered on this post. Some types of paint bond better to rocks than others thus making the wire brush removal process less effective. The type of rock will also determine how tightly bonded the paint is to the rock and how effective wire brushing the paint will be.
Just offering a few thoughts that may help in determining an acceptable and efficient way to remove or cover the orange paint. Seems order of preference is:
1) Remove orange paint by physical method (wire brush)
2) Remove orange paint by chemical method (lacquer thinner, acetone, paint stripper). Unfortunately residue that doesn't evaporate into the air will be left behind on the ground.
3) Painting over the orange paint with a paint that matches the rock. Drawback is that this adds "more paint" to an area where we want "no paint" and in future years this camouflage will eventually wear away and may expose the orange paint again. Hopefully the orange paint will stick to the new camouflage rock colored paint more tightly that it sticks to the rock, thus the orange paint will be removed from the rock at the same time the camouflage rock colored paint flakes off.
4) Dynomite (blasting) just kidding

I thank those that make the effort to remove or hide the sight of orange paint along the Skyline Trail and hope that this information may help you. Any method to remove or cover the orange paint is an improvement that will be appreciated by those using the trail.

[Ken]

Ken,

To clarify matters, it was me, not Scott, who said

"Yes, I would want to apply 'those rules' to everyone, everywhere, at all times."

Which you would have seen if you read people's posts more carefully.

And I meant it.

Your pettifogging about special rules for legally-defined Wilderness Areas is nonsense. In general, those rules are no man-made structures, no wheeled or motorized vehicles, and no low-altitude overflights by aircraft. Rules and practices regarding 'wilderness ethics' - don't litter, don't cut switchbacks, don't deface rocks, etc. - are not limited to legally-defined wilderness areas, and were widely accepted long before the Wilderness Act of 1964. If you don't know this, you are ignorant. If you do, you are simply being obnoxious.

Well, Ed, it's always productive to call people names on an internet thread.

Let me expand my apology for misinterpretation to you, too. I sort of wonder what sort of bleeping person that makes me?

By the way, your *interpretation* of what is involved in wilderness rules is quite off. Come out and join me in working in the wilderness some time, and you'll see just how restrictive it is.

[Hikin_Jim]

Let's keep it civil please.

HJ
(Moderator)

[Ed]

Jim,

I believe in people being courteous and respectful on this and other discussion boards. But twisting, distorting and exaggerating what other people say to make cheap, self-satisfying debating points is neither. Many of us occasionally transgress, and this is somewhat normal given our competitive and combative verbal culture. But Ken is in a class by himself. I have no apologies to make for calling him out.

[whitebark]

.....
1) Remove orange paint by physical method (wire brush)
2) Remove orange paint by chemical method (lacquer thinner, acetone, paint stripper). Unfortunately residue that doesn't evaporate into the air will be left behind on the ground.
3) Painting over the orange paint with a paint that matches the rock.
.....

You might try using a powerful cordless drill with a wire brush attachment to remove the paint spots. Somewhere I heard that can work well.

[arocknoid]

Gentlepeople,

This thread demonstrates (demonstates!) how polarizing is this topic, and also how resilient is this forum.

It survived a strafing run by Godwin (Godwin's Law) and has gone on to additional productive discourse.

Even a pettifoggery reference; perhaps flibbertygibbets will follow 8-p

Thanks especially to bluerail for his efforts and the hot tip on Motsenbocker's Lift Off #4, which appears to be the best balance of success and enviro-friendly. Read the MSDS -- VOC and green friendly, with acetone the most notable ingredient.
Medical warnings re: ingestion are likewise reassuring, and re: the proprietary/trade secret unlisted ingredients, these would be accessible if need be with PCC contact; the Green Rating makes it a great choice for this app.

My experience previously with the graffiti on the Mt. Baldy "plate" and the orange painted arrows on Three Tees landmarks, rubbing alcohol and oil-based sunblock failed (those are always on hand and are enviro-friendly, and yes, sunblock lotion can work sometimes d.t. vehicle organics). Return efforts with wire brush and other (greenish) solvents also failed.

Tie-in with Godwin: I also tried Ballistol, of which a medical version was used historically, and led to *poisoning of Hitler* (google Hitler/Ballistol/ and Morell (two Ls--not fun-gi!).

And for a film reference for Ellen: sandblasting would work well with for applied graffiti as well as the applicant. e.g. ankle. (no, I am not advocating such violence!!) hint: UK true/spec crime history; Saffron Burrows--happy BDay!

Thanks to Steve and everyone else helping clean up the rockage.

Regardless of intent, including possibly to facilitate reproducible courses and cuts for time-comparisons, one of the *unintended* consequences may be contrary to the support shown that such markings help improve safety.

"No problem, you can't get lost, just follow the orange dots, carry some water and your cell phone."

insert eyeroll here

This is not the Skyline of 8 or 10 years ago, and more and more folks are hiking it who are less experienced and prepared than many oldsters would recommend. Making the effort and taking the time in preparation to become skilled and experienced with route-finding both generally and with Skyline will enhance the chance of success with reduced risk of rescue of the inadequately prepared.

Better still, make your first hike with someone who knows Skyline.

"Dots? We don't need no stinkin' dots!"
(again with the yellow hat!)

And if you absolutely *must* mark some dots, use chalk fer cryin' out loud. Comes in colors, too! Easy clean up!

[OC hiker]

Gentlepeople,



"No problem, you can't get lost, just follow the orange dots, carry some water and your cell phone."

insert eyeroll here

This is not the Skyline of 8 or 10 years ago, and more and more folks are hiking it who are less experienced and prepared than many oldsters would recommend. Making the effort and taking the time in preparation to become skilled and experienced with route-finding both generally and with Skyline will enhance the chance of success with reduced risk of rescue of the inadequately prepared.

I don't want to fan the flame here and lord knows I can't even follow what Jim and Ken are saying with all those big words but I do feel like this is a polarizing topic. In response to the above post wouldn't it be a great goal to make it so that "you can't get lost"? I suppose that I can understand the need for bravado from some people but are all the "old timers" going to say that they took out the topo map and Lewis and Clarked their way to the top their first time up Skyline? I would think that these skills are to be used when going OFF a used trail (which can be fun of course). But Skyline is a used trail so why not make it so that people cannot get lost? I assure you that on the Appalachian Trial ( which is very well marked) that people don't just go out there with an Evian bottle and their cell phone and survive. It would seem to me that maybe some people are starting to see that with proper training and some general common sense (bring the ten essentials) that this trail is doable. So why not make the trail clear to ensure safety and reduce trail erosion over time?

[Ed]

There are route-finding problems on the Skyline Trail, but I think they have been exaggerated. Ninety percent of the trail is as easy to follow as most trails. Newcomers, as I was several years ago, have several choices. First, scout the lower end of the trail in daylight. That is where most of the problems are, despite the fact that the white marks have been there for a long time. I've never had a problem following the trail in the dark with a headlamp above the painted message just above the junction with the trail from Ramon Road. Second, take the trail from Ramon Road rather than the trail from the museum, it is easier to follow. The third alternative is to hike the trail for the first time with someone else. The fourth is to download a gps track, there are some on Perry's website, I believe. While I'm not fond of gps navigation, it is difficult to make a case for defacing rocks when that alternative is available.

The problems higher up, e.g., the trail divides and joins later on, are not major. Anybody who goes far down into a side canyon has a problem that is beyond route-finding, and does not belong on the trail.

My hat is off to the people who are trying to remove the orange dots.

[Screerider]

As noted by OC Hiker, " What I think happened was that someone had good intensions with the dots below about 6K feet but then some other person decided to use the same color to encourage cutting multiple switchbacks up over 6K feet which we ignored of course mostly because we were tired! "
The dots do not appear to follow the safest route and therefore are a hazard to the ill informed. The problem of getting lost is with those retreating in an overheated haze, not with those going up. The original white dots leading to the tables were helpful. They help keep tourists on the trail, thus controlling erosion. They were well placed.
I need to go see. I may just be able to rub them off with another rock.