A modest proposal to slightly decrease rescues on Skyline ..

[bluerail]

Yea.....you're doing all that running to be able to keep up with a very special Cat....

When you coming out buddy? Are you free July 14th ?

[zippetydude]

Gonna be up north floatin' on the Russian River. I might run the Golden Gate Bridge again like I did last month when I was up there. Only a couple of miles each way, but what an experience! I'm thinkin' about a short trip later in the summer to the Sierras, though. I'll pm or text you if I can make something happen.

z

[halhiker]

It is really sad when you hear about a person being killed in a car. Just like it is sad when a outdoor enthusiast is killed or injured. People meet their fate one way or another. Sometimes because they were stupid and sometimes because of nothing that they did incorrectly except to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Heading out into the back country is dangerous just like getting on the freeway with people talking on their phones and texting. Yet everyone in this forum does both.

Rest of long quote snipped

I have to disagree. People who drive cars must pass some type of training and a test. And there are fines for dangerous behavior while driving. People who opt to do Skyline in the summer probably do not have any idea what they are getting into and if they did and still go, they are either foolhardy, arrogant or just plain dumb. I think the people in the local community are well aware of the potential for some land manager to take control of this trail and it is what they fear. But it won't be this or any other forum that prompt them to do so. It'll be because they are sick of idiots coming out and testing themselves during a time of year that they have no business being out hiking on any trail in the area much less the toughest one.

I think of the Skyline the way I think of the Wedge in Newport. On normal days just about anyone with some skills can go out there and show what they've got but when the conditions are at their most extreme there are only a handful of people in the world who have any business being out there. The main difference is that there are no lifeguards on the Skyline. Luckily, we haven't had much trouble up there this summer but it's early. Just wait.

[bluerail]

I have to disagree Hal, I think were already off to a bad start this summer, like you said its early.

[skunkboy]

zippetydude wrote:

[

Don't do workouts that you make you hate exercising.

I always show up for the workout, and I have a bunch of ways I use to keep workouts interesting so that I will maintain my intensity. But sometimes I just don't feel good and will end up hating it if I do the workout I had planned. So I don't. Long or short, I don't do it if it makes me hate exercising.

I once had a long run scheduled to go up Forsee to San G and back, which I've only done a couple of times. I was looking forward to it all week, and the morning I was supposed to go, I felt nauseated as I drove up. Despite trying to shake it off and get started, after a mile I lay down on my back on a big log and watched the tops of the trees sway back and forth in the breeze. After a while, I walked back to the car, then drove home. I didn't feel defeated - I just had my body tell me "no". It happens. No worries. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

CA wrote:

There are many reasons that people are drawn to the outdoors. It is different for everyone. Just like everyone's skill set and fitness are different. I freely admit that I get super hot under the collar when I come across knuckleheads when I am out on a BC Ski tour. These people don't even know the difference between their Cell Phone, Beacon, or SPOT. Basic navigation, forget about it. Route finding, "whats that?". I want to blame it on REI, GoPro, Outside Mag, X Games, TV.... "Who are all these people out here, they are just ruining it for everyone that really know what we are doing." Then I look up and realize that for me, one of the reasons I am in the back country in the first place is to get away from that kind of elitist attitude. I tell myself "Shut the f''' up, now you are thinking and acting like the very people you are trying to escape from." The beauty of the back country is that people are out doing their thing, their way. And for the most part are not really affecting me at all.

halhiker wrote:

I think of the Skyline the way I think of the Wedge in Newport. On normal days just about anyone with some skills can go out there and show what they've got but when the conditions are at their most extreme there are only a handful of people in the world who have any business being out there. The main difference is that there are no lifeguards on the Skyline. Luckily, we haven't had much trouble up there this summer but it's early. Just wait.

Well said gentlemen. All three of these posts revolve around what I see as a central theme. It kind of reminds me of that Little Feat song, Old Folks Boogie, but could apply to anyone.

"Your mind makes a promise, that your body can't fill."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_nFwwjBlEc

[zippetydude]

Nice link skunk!

Hal, "they are either foolhardy, arrogant or just plain dumb." would have to apply to half of the people on this board given your criteria, maybe even to you! C'mon, I know about some of your crazy hikes. Tell me there was no risk involved. It was just a calculated risk, like the description above is supposed to categorize.

I don't think that's the best description of dumb, arrogant, foolhardy people like us! How about "adventurers that just might adventure themselves into the next life" or "risk takers that are risking the trail's viability, not just their own lives"?

Those describe some of the crazy people I know on this board just a little better. And, like we've said so many times, I'd much rather go on a trail than lying in a horrid white sterile hospital bed when my time comes...

z

[wb]

I'd much rather go on a trail than lying in a horrid white sterile hospital bed when my time comes...z

Well said, zippetydude. This thread, as well as the parent thread, "Skyline Closed", has good intentions that produce unwanted results. With no intent towards unkindness or insult, it is the maternalistic, regulatory kind of thinking behind both threads that takes the wild out of wilderness. It is the spirit of adventure and exploration that drives so many of us to take potentially fatal risks. Make the warnings, yes. Close the trail? No. If the trail gets closed, what next? Guard rails? There are worse things than dying, after all.

[halhiker]

Nice link skunk!

Hal, "they are either foolhardy, arrogant or just plain dumb." would have to apply to half of the people on this board given your criteria, maybe even to you! C'mon, I know about some of your crazy hikes. Tell me there was no risk involved. It was just a calculated risk, like the description above is supposed to categorize.

I don't think that's the best description of dumb, arrogant, foolhardy people like us! How about "adventurers that just might adventure themselves into the next life" or "risk takers that are risking the trail's viability, not just their own lives"?

Those describe some of the crazy people I know on this board just a little better. And, like we've said so many times, I'd much rather go on a trail than lying in a horrid white sterile hospital bed when my time comes...

z

I was mainly referring to people who do the Skyline for the first time and especially those from outside the area. I should have made myself clear. I have no problem with those who are prepared both mentally and physically pushing their limits. It's just that summer is not the time to do this hike for the first time.

[bluerail]

Look what i found Ze,

Exercise Mechanics Tips Difficulty Useful Links
Hiking Exercise Physiology - Energy Pathways
We will start backwards. When we hike (or run) we move our limbs in desired motions and speeds. To get the desired movements, we need our muscles to contract. Muscles cannot contract without having energy available. So we need to get energy to the muscles.

Where does the energy come from, you say? Well, it depends on the energy demands of the muscle. Compare walking at 3 mph on a flat terrain to walking 3pmh on a steep trail and running 6 mph on a steep trail. Wouldn't you agree the energy demands are different? In the 6 mph case, there is a high energy demand and it is probable that this pace could not be kept up for long. High energy demand exercise is considered anaerobic exercise. This basically means that the energy for the muscles is produced without using oxygen. This means that the energy supply is quite limited, and may only last for a few minutes. But because the energy can be created without oxygen, a lot of it can be produced quickly, so fast movements that last 10 seconds - 3 minutes will rely on this source.

While still depending on fitness level, the two 3 mph cases are more likely to utilize aerobic energy. Because We can broadly classify exercise into 2 forms: 1) Anaerobic & 2) Aerobic exercise. "Aerobic" indicates that energy used for exercise requires oxygen, while anerobic exercise does not use oxygen. Now, you might be able to guess which one is going to be important in endurance exercise - aerobic. Energy derived from chemical reactions without oxygen will give you energy more rapidly - but cannot last very long.

We can break down energy stores to 4 sources:

1. ATP-CP - Anaerobic

ATP-CP uses creatine phosphate to produce energy (ATP). It is known as the "immediate" energy source, and will basically depleted after 6-10 seconds of the highest energy exertion. So activities such as sprinting 100 m will use mostly this energy pathway. You'll notice in an all-out effort that you quickly cannot go as fast as when you started. This is because after 10 seconds, you run out of this energy and have to utulize the other energy pathways which cannot give as high of an energy output.

In Hiking Terms

Ideally, you will not be focusing on this energy system when hiking, but it can happen. Take, for instance, a really steep, but short climb that you want to ascend as fast as possible. You may push as hard as possible to get to the top, and you will be using ATP-CP to do it. But obviously, you cannot do that for long, and if you are doing a long hike, you wouldn't want to try that and then wear yourself out.

Training

This energy system will only be utilized during interval training. Intervals from 5 seconds to 5 minutes will at least partially tap the ATP-CP system, and for hiking you would only want to focuse on the longer duration intervals. As you will be hiking for several hours, you will want to train with longer intervals that also heavily utilize oxygen. More on this later.

2. Glycolysis - Anaerobic

Glycolysis is the generic term for the breaking down of glycogen. Glycogen is basically a storage of carbohydrates in the muscles. It can be broken anaerobically (without oxygen) or aerobically. Anerobically, the process cannot last as long as lactic acid is produced. This acid is the burning sensation you feel in muscles when doing high intensity exercise...and so the fact that this energy lasts from 30 seconds to a few minutes makes sense.

In Hiking Terms

An important system to consider when hiking - if only because when doing steady state hiking, its something you want to avoid. If you are planning on doing several hours of hiking, you do not want to feel the burn in your muscles at the beginning - unless you are doing it for training. You will be able to go further if avoiding this intensity of exercise (you can only do for a few minutes). So when the hikes get steep, trying to keep the same pace will require more energy for your muscles, and they'll start using anaerobic glycolysis. To avoid it, slow your pace down!

Training

Very important. A major determinant of cardiovascular fitness is your aerobic/anaerobic threshold (AT). The level of intensity at the AT is when the body can flush out the lactic acid as quickly as it is created. At higher intensity, the body cannot remove it quickly enough. By training above this threshold, you can train your body to better flush out the lactic acid, and increase the intensity at which AT occurs.

Bouts of exercise from 30 seconds to 10 minutes will tax the anaerobic glycolysis system. Training in this range will be an important part to improve hiking performance, more on this later.

3. Glycolysis - Aerobic

The burning of glycogen using oxygen can last much longer, as lactic acid isn't produced. So this rate of energy can last much longer...but how long? Well, I'll have to do a better literature review to better estimate, but it's going to be directly related to how much glycogen you have stored in your muscles. So when you workout, you need to eat carbohydrates to replenish these storages. If you don't, you will feel fatigued, as your body can't produce energy at the rate you are used to. That's why you'll see people eating all sorts of sugary stuff when doing multi-hour endurance activities. Gatorade came to signficance partly due to showing that by giving carbohydrate calories to people during exercise, the participants could perform the exercise for longer.

In Hiking Terms

A main energy system to use when hiking. When you are breathing hard, you are using this pathway. Breathing hard = using a lot of oxygen! You'll use it all the time when doing moderate + hikes. The key, of course, is to make sure you don't deplete your glycogen stores before you finish the hike (or at least the hard part). This is done partly by bringing some carb-dense food, and partly by hiking at an intensity that also uses #4 below.

Training

Again very important. You want to be able to take in a lot of oxygen for your body to use. Although it seems that you are limited by your lungs when working and breathing hard, it almost always comes down to the fitness of your heart and muscles. Training at intensities that you can only do for less than 1 hour will train your heart to pump strongly, and train your muscles to process oxygen for glycolysis more efficiently.

So training to get stronger at hiking is based around switching between aerobic and anerobic glycolysis. Mixing up intensities that you can hold between 5 and 20 minutes will sufficiently tax the cardiovascular system. It will help push the AT up higher, so you can hike at a higher intensity for longer - as long as you have the glycogen reserves!

4. Fatty Acid Metabolism - Aerobic

Uses oxygen and fatty acids to produce ATP. Burning fat will not give you as much energy / time as you need for strenuous exercise, so your body uses it more at lower intensities. I will not get into the discussion about thinking this means you should exercise at a lighter intensity to burn more fat, but basically it's not true. You want to burn the most calories to lose weight.

In Hiking Terms

You'll be using this energy pathway during hiking, especially for the longer ones. Unlike aerobic glycolysis, you won't run out of fat to use for energy. You just can't go as fast when relying on it. That's why when you are planning to go far, you have to go slow enough to use a good amount of your energy from fat. You'll plan on the rest coming from carbohydrates, but you may have only 1000 - 1500 kcal of glycogen available, so plan to spread it out over a few hours!

Training

While some may argue specifically about improved ability to extract ATP from fat, this is not an important system to focus on when training. Basically, it's not intense enough. It's not pushing your heart to pump oxygen, nor pushing your muscles to use it. And it certainly isn't improving the AT threshold. You'll use it when doing high-intensity intervals - in the rest portion. Otherwise, don't expect to exercise at this intensity and gain significant improvements in fitness.

[cynthia23]

Interesting link, thanks for sharing. I see that we're not the only board riven by, er, 'discussion' on the topic of just how 'extreme' and competitive hiking should be. In fact we seem totally mellow now

WB--my posts are 'maternalistic'? Are we woman-baiting now? I would hate to think that this board would fall a victim to what another woman on here (you know who you are, and your initials are E.G.) memorably dubbed 'the penis effect'. (I can say that here, right? ) I hope my posts can be viewed with recourse to my gender, class, and Irish-American-ness. While it's true that men and women tend to have different views on risk-taking, it doesn't always play out that way--there's some cautious dudes and wild and crazy gals right on this very board. Personally, rather than falling into some gender stereotype, I prefer to think of myself as simply oldschool. Although I do understand that people who feel disempowered in their 'real' lives (and that's all of us, nowadays) understandably seek an outlet for authentic experience (i.e. dangerous hikes) it saddens me to see how wilderness exploration has drifted into such a hypercompetitive, macho, 'extreme' sport. It sucks the fun out of it and makes it too much part of our competititve, hierarchical society. All the emphasis on time and beating the clock! It's just like another job, except you don't get paid

But getting out of sociology and back to summer Skyline: the 'live free or die" folks are forgetting that when they choose to do an unnessarily dangerous hike, the person who might dies might not be YOU. The recent sad death of a climbing ranger rescuing a group on Mount Rainier is a reminder that rescuing people is dangerous. Flying a helicopter next to Mt. San Jacinto is not like pulling a taxi to the curb. Yeah, the rescuers freely choose to do it, but why put them to an unnneccesary risk?

Or, perhaps it might be your hiking buddy who dies. One of the deaths on Skyline seemed to involve such a situation. It appears from what some have said that two people set out to do a summer Skyline, and shortly into it the weaker partner started having problems. However, they continued, and at some point the weaker guy couldn't go on. Perhaps already too messed up from the heat to think straight, the weaker guy turned back on his own, and the stronger guy kept going. Stronger guy made it to the tram. Weaker guy died horrifically.

How would you like to live with something like this? I wouldn't.

Zumbadude, er, Zippety, I thought Hal was referring to the unprepared and/or non-local, not a blanket condemnation of all. He did refer to the few who are capable, and that certainly includes you. The problem--getting back to the original point of this thread--is that sometimes people wrongly think they ARE capable, and I wish there were a better way to communicate that ..... beside the distribution of Superman capes ....