Yet another rescue of Skyline

[AlanK]

is this horse dead yet?

"Neigh!"

Sorry. I really have said enough here, but you served that one up so well!

[magikwalt]

This is all my fault and Yichus is correct. I was highly critical of Udi for not following any normal rules or suggested behaviors for hike leaders/coordinators that I'm aware of right up until Donnie prompted him to call at 7400ft. After that he did everything he could. All along I have been critical about his actions prior to calling S&R.

I apologize for having higher than "normal" expectations of hike leaders/coordinators.

As a matter of fact after reading Erik's post

If they had let me go on, I figure I would have got to the tram between 6 and 7.

I realize he was on pace for a new record. Lee, current record holder at 14 hours would have been eclipsed by Erik who, had he not been cruelly stopped by the Rangers, would have posted 15 or 16 hours and a much higher heat index score! Those Rangers probably knew Lee and decided his record would stand.

Obviously we have two very distinct camps here.

Yichus please pass my apology above along to Udi. I'd be happy to but he did ask that I please let him have the last f word...since its baseball season and the ODC is his home field, I've acquiesced.

[Yichus]

Hi there Walt...

First, thanks so much for your comments. I always appreciate hearing from this message board's expert-in-residence. (: I shall surely pass your apology on to Udi, from whom we all could learn a great deal about accepting "constructive criticism" delivered haughtily by eager-to-criticize folks who possess great leadership skills and who always exercise perfect judgment that serve as a model for us all.

And thanks, as well, for the wonderful example of irony in one of your ODC message board posts; it's truly sui generis! Chapeau beau!

By the way, you might wish to consider the fact that Udi is a non-native English speaker. A certain disparager could have asked for clarification regarding the idiomatic expressions Udi used to describe the "mishap." Perhaps Udi's "cavilier" [sic] attitude doesn't exist except in the quick-to-judge minds of those who ascribe unwarranted meaning to his words--a likely possibility.

You might also wish to try being a tad less defensive, as your angry tone detracts from your message. I do admire your passion for, and knowledge of, the outdoors, though.

Best,

-Y

[Perry]

is this horse dead yet?

We can't change the past, only the future.

One thing I've found is that the more time I spend outdoors and less time on message boards, the better I feel and less-likely I am to be angry at someone. I think message boards are great obviously, but in moderation and in balance with other things.

[AlanK]

I think this message board is a great service. I find the participants generally quite likeable and the discussions generally quite constructive and useful. The get toether last weekend, which I was really sorry to have to miss (especially after hearing people sing the praises if Walt's BBQ), shows that other people feel the same way. This is just a great Board!

By the way, we should invite Udi to the nest get-together. He can bring the Bacardi.

[Cy Kaicener]

Here is the whole story by Eric who was rescued. Scroll down to the second last post by Eric Noguera. Now the horse is dead and we shouldnt beat it anymore.
http://www.outdoorsclub.org/forum/displ ... readPage=2

[AlanK]

That board sure makes this one look mild!

The horse is dead and I feel sorry for the horse.

We obviously need a new thread, but one of comparable potential. Middle East Peace?

[HikeUp]

Middle East Peace?

Now there's a horse that will fight back.

[TerraElise]

I led a 'beginners' 1 night backpack to San Jacinto's 'strawberry junction' camp last year - women only, had a group of 5. I am sort of slow (I'm not out to 'push' it, more like enjoy it) but still well out-paced one member, while another burst off going twice as fast. I didn't mind the fast one, and i stayed with 1 girl, the woman in the back was with another. Suffice to say that even with my taking 10-20 minute breaks waiting for them to catch up (this trail is just over 4 miles, 2200 ft gain, IMO well-marked trails) they still didn't make it to the junction for an hour after I did. I learned A LOT from that trip, especially after being reamed in the ODC message boards:

I learned first and foremost that people really don't understand elevation gain. Some people honestly only saw 'beginner' and '1 night' and '4.3 miles' - rather than 'beginning backpacker but experienced hiker' and '2200 gain', so I'm learning to be more precise AND to talk to everyone before going on overnight trips to find out their actual experience. It's shocking, but true. (for me it's distance, i just cannot do over 12 miles in a row, and have slowed down a hike due to it - 16 mile hike - luckily that crew was really cool and I learned more, too!)

I learned that I just don't want a group that I am leading to split up into more than 2 parts, and to have a radio (if slower group is capable) else an experienced sweep. I don't really care about myself being ditched personally, but I have to consider different types when you go hiking with people you don't know at all (just happened in the Grand Canyon in May when i was just too slow in the heat - usually still withing a mile, which is visual or shouting distance, but I knew all of them and we knew our limits and eachother). However, adults tend to do whatever they want, so as a leader you have to assume some responsibility about it, even if it's just an informal outing in ODC.

I learned that as a leader sometimes someone will be a sour apple and slam you on the internet - that's just risks of meeting people online.

I learned that if everyone says they can, but when you meet them someone cannot (or after a short time it's obvious they cannot continue) then you need to turn them around, even if it means walking them back out.

I learned that Forums like ODC are a great place to meet like-minded individuals for a variety of relaxed adventures - AND a great place to get feedback and learn from mistakes - many ODC'er shared mistakes and I learned a great deal about myself and things I can change about handling situations that come up on the trail - and in life! (-;

New registrant to this forum, but have happily poked around before since I love the SJacinto area, just lovely there - I really enjoyed the Marion Mtn trail, just gorgeous.

[guest]

The main point of this thread was to prevent this from happening again.
Constructive criticism is one way to achieve this, if it's sounds harsh, well, people have died on this hike so it needs to be said.

Sarcasm & and jabs that some posters are experts (no one claims this) are childish in my opinion & do nothing to help the big picture.

I have spoken with the person in charge of the rescue, and to reiterate, here are some of the repercussions of such an ill-fated undertakings can have.

All state park resources (yes, we know they are on a limited budget / staff) have to be taken away from their other duties), which includes; canceling the campfire program for the day that families were enjoying, not having vital resources available if other problems arise, taking a helo away from other duties, putting rescuers into extreme conditions, volunteers being called away from their families & jobs, the coordination involved, and on it goes.

Here's the agencies involved who are seriously considering closing the trail, at least seasonally, and / or requiring a permit (yes, they can do this).
State Park, Sherriff's dpmt., CHP, CDF, Nat'l Forest, RMRU, PS SAR's. If this happens, everyone will pay the price for a few. Sure, we all have a right to the wilderness, but at a cost.

So, maybe some who are so concerned about someones feelings being hurt, (when in fact a serious event occurred), or feel this whole incident doesn't warrant analysis or criticism, and still find the need to post this hike during extreme weather, will think about the big picture here.

It's very possible that this was the last straw regarding rescues on Skyline, I hope not.

ss