Cactus to Clouds June through Sept is a DEADLY idea ..

[Wildhorse]

I think Zippetydude and Perry have provided very interesting details about what fitness looks and feels like and about the logistics of staying cool. Zippetydude and Perry epitomize for me the fitness and planning that befit a summer Skyline.

Being able to gain 2500 feet per hour, especially in the sun in the summer and for more than just one hour, provides a very vivid description of what a safe fitness level for a summer Skyline is like. By comparison, I am fit for most southern California hiking in mild temperatures, but not for a summer Skyline. I can do about 2000 feet per hour, for one hour, on a cool day in the shade. Maybe I could do more at that rate, but I have never tried. At the same time, I can feel whipped climbing 1000 feet at Cowles in San Diego at 85 degrees on a humid day in the sun, in about 30 minutes. It is easy for me to imagine dying on Skyline. When it comes, the heat exhaustion comes very fast.

Some people do seem to succeed hiking up Skyline in the summer who are not nearly as fit as Perry and Zippetydude. It amazes me. Even outside of summer, I am amazed by the people who climb Skyline who are neither fit nor logistically prepared for it. I am not thinking that they are stupid or fools or unethical or anything like that. I am only amazed that their bodies could do it.

[zippetydude]

Pardon the hijack everyone, but...

Hey Perry, how about some pictures of the little one?!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

z

[guest]

Perry fast,,,,,,,well I did catch a glimpse a couple times as he jogged by, (& I wasn't goin slow).
Now, he's just a fat, happy daddie, I assume, (just kiddin).

Re. conditions: Hot & humid, (think middle of summer with Monsoon), and no breeze, is very dangerous.
If it's dry & breezy, and cooling a bit at night, that's way better, but still dangerous.

You can always go do Vivian Creek for a great, tough climb, or Whitney etc. and have much nicer temps & conditions, Skyline will still be there come fall.

ss

[Hikin_Jim]

You can always go do Vivian Creek for a great, tough climb, or Whitney etc. and have much nicer temps & conditions, Skyline will still be there come fall.

Or Momyer Creek (Vivian Creek is hard to get sometimes). If you go straight up to the ridge from the trailhead, that's plenty of work out. If that doesn't sound like enough, Google "Big Iron" "San Gabriels".

Still need more? (you're a sick puppy) Try this list: Southern California Peaks Over 9000 Feet.

HJ

[zippetydude]

If you try the "Momyer Direct" route this time of year, watch out for those horrid gnats and evil rattlers! I miss South Fork...

z

[cynthia23]

Whew, didn't check in for a few days and lots of interesting comments here. Agree that if you're very fit and very familiar with Skyline, of course, it is possible to do it in the summer. The issue for me is 'Twit Happens"--that all of us, even the fittest, have days when something goes wrong or when we suddenly feel ill. Maybe we were harboring a bit of a virus or stomach bug, and the strain of such intense exercise weakens the immune system to the point where we're suddenly pretty damn ill. Maybe the Thai food we ate last night was a bit spoiled, and we're suddenly stricken with food poisoning. Maybe we're just a little bit older than we were the last time we did it, and a hike which was challenging but doable, is now just too hard. I personally have seen a guy who has been doing the trail for many many years, suddenly heaving and very ill at Flat Rock. Whatever it might be, no matter how fit and prepared we are, we are suddenly in the exact same position as somebody unfit and unprepared: stuck at 4 or 5 thousand feet with no option but to call for a rescue. That's the big problem I have with summer Skylines, in a nutshell. I mean, it's not as if there aren't lots of good alternatives nearby to keep one busy until November, so why do it? Given that it's basically very unpleasant on hot days and not a good work out, what is the rationale for trying it in the summer? Really, why bother?

However, the biggest problem during the summer is not from 'regulars'--as far as I know, one has never been rescued. Most of the rescues are first timers or people who haven't done it often or in a long time.

[Wildhorse]

Considering that twit happens to everyone, then it is true that the more often one hikes skyline in summer, the more likely the hike will result in rescue or death. The chance increases with frequency to near certainty.

[Hikin_Jim]

If you try the "Momyer Direct" route this time of year, watch out for those horrid gnats and evil rattlers! I miss South Fork...

Yeah, the Momyer Direct is not for the faint of heart. Most of the time it's fine, but one does occasionally see a rattler.

The other fun grueler out there is the Falls - Vivian loop. The very fit can do it in a day although for me it's best as an overnighter. Basic outline: Start at the Momyer Creek trail head in the Forest Falls area. Go up to the junction with the Alger Creek Trail and turn right (east). The Alger Creek Trail turns into the Falls Creek Trail after a couple of miles; follow the Falls Creek Trail up to Dollar Lake Saddle. At the saddle, turn right (east to east-south-east) on the San Bernardino Peak Divide Trail. Follow the San Bernardino Peak Divide Trail around the shoulders of Charlton, Little Charlton, and Jepson Peaks until you get to the junction with the Vivian Creek Trail. Here, you can continue east for another 0.7 miles or so and reach the highest point in Southern California (San Gorgonio Mountain -- 11,502'), or you can just descend the Vivian Creek Trail back to the Forest Falls area. You do have a couple of miles walk between the two trail heads, so either set up a car shuttle or plan an extra hour or so to walk back to your car. Definitely do the loop clockwise if you plan to walk back to your car so you're going down hill at the end. Maps and such: Six Loops in the San Gorgonio.

Tip: the Momyer Creek Trailhead is much easier to get a permit for than the Vivian Creek Trailhead.

HJ

[zippetydude]

Leaving a bike at Vivian is easier and faster than walking or setting up a shuttle. I used to do that for Skyline to return from the tram to the museum but they banned bikes on the tram road.

z

[Wildhorse]

2600fromatari and Cynthia23 raise the political and moral aspects of hiking Skyline. Skyline hiking comes with public costs - mostly the cost of rescues, because the government conducts rescues. In addition, rescues involve some risk to the rescue workers, who, I believe, are paid public employees as well as volunteers. Cynthia has raised this moral aspect, which is also a political aspect under more than one political theory. Restricting Skyline use is also a political issue because it restricts freedom.

As 2600fromatari wrote, "It is a never ending debate."

Last night a person riding a mountain bike at Cowles Mountain, crashed, went over the handle bars and broke his collar bone. As I wrote in another thread, the rescue involved many fire trucks and a helicopter, and at least 25 to 30 people. It also involved lowering a rescue worker from the helicopter to the crash site, which may be risky. Consider the cost of this rescue. I would guess that the cost is at least $10,000. The public pays.

The crash occurred in a dangerous location. It is dangerous to the mountain biker, and as Ed wrote in the other thread, dangerous to hikers. The danger is accentuated by the mountain bikers who race down the steep road that is covered with loose sand and rock and is used by many hikers. Injuries can be expected with notable frequency.

I think that the crash on Cowles, more than summer Skyline hiking, reveals, that to some extent, we are all involved in each others lives and decisions, and can be hurt or helped by them, even if we don't know the other people or agree with their decisions. At the same time, we all benefit from allowing each other freedom to live our lives as we will, and through facilitating that freedom through our politics. We can even benefit when the freedom poses a risk to our lives.

The politics are complex. Again, as 2600fromatari wrote, "It is a never ending debate."

I wish I could tell you where I stand. The debate rages in my own head as much as it does in the public square.