Cactus to Clouds June through Sept is a DEADLY idea ..

[cynthia23]

I don't think I would disagree that some people manage to climb Skyline during the summer--of course, some do. It's just that even if you are very fit and very familiar with the trail, you've still significantly increased your odds of being in a rescue situation--and what's the benefit of taking that risk given that the trail can be done safely, and much more pleasantly, other times of year?

[Hikin_Jim]

I seriously doubt that anyone who does it in summer does it as their first attempt of Skyline.

I know several guys who have managed to pull it off. Typically they are uber fit. Not fit, uber fit. Like Ironman type fit, and I mean the real Ironman, not the shorty Ironman competitions. They typically live in the desert and know the climate well -- and are acclimated to it. They're very strategic in their planning. They know just how fast they can go up the darned thing because they've done it so many times. They know just how fast they have to go in order to get high enough fast enough to escape the heat. Injury may well mean death. And even the uber fit, experienced veteran desert dwellers don't do it on the hottest days. These are guys that can make highly effective action plans based on extensive knowledge of the route, local climate, and themselves -- under those conditions.

For someone with out that level of fitness, that level of experience on that route and in very hot conditions, and a heat acclimated body, Skyline in the summer is just about suicide. You have to be really stupid, really ignorant, or just want to die.

HJ

[guest]

Well put Jim. And, as a few others mentioned, one's ability to handle, (through acclimation & just natural tolerance), makes a big difference.
Pacing, monitoring & regulation your heat, (by excursion, outside temp, where on the climb, etc.), is a skill that needs to be learned & utilized in extreme conditions.

The times I have done Skyline in hot conditions, I was in great shape, (doing Skyline, or long trail runs & hard, hot bike rides weekly), was heat conditioned, and, you've mentioned, I had a plan, just in case something bad happened.
Even a desert rat like myself & some others on here, some days the heat really doesn't bother me too much, other times, it's a serious concern, while exerting in the heat.

The whole "badge of honor" to say, (& of course post all over the web), that you did Skyline in summer is risky at best, selfish if you need help, and can be dangerous if you stop breathing!
Even the gal who is cranking out more accents on Skyline than anyone else right now, mentioned that No one should be doing it right now, (this was a week ago when we hit 115 in PS).
If someone on here lands up doing, do all a big favor, and don't post it here!

Happy hiking, I'll be in the mtns!

ss

[mattytreks]

If someone on here lands up doing, do all a big favor, and don't post it here!

Agreed, that it might be best if we didn't further publicize the hike during these months.

In fact, we should use this time to promote all the other great trails on this mountain.

[zippetydude]

Cynthia's bad experience after completing several other summer hikes up Skyline seems to indicate that even the fittest can expect to die if they hike in summer often enough. Is that true? Zippetydude, do you still hike Skyline in summer? How many times do you think you have done that? Does anyone else here hike Skyline in summer?

I would think that someone who is capable of running Skyline under milder conditions would be capable of hiking there in summer by getting an early start. Such conditioning would allow one to shorten the hike. The early start would further minimize the temperature and the sun exposure. (Too little heat intolerance would rule it out even with such conditioning.) Zippetydude, does that match your experience?

Hi Wildhorse. I haven't hiked it recently because I've been rehabilitating a knee that got very sore during an ultramarathon. I'll probably be back on Skyline in September, but I will want all my systems 100% before I do it again in the summer. I've posted my method before, so any long-time board posters please forgive me if I am telling a story you've already heard...

So, my method is as close to bulletproof as I could manage, and I would say that, in answer to your question, it does not inevitably end up being dangerous.

First, I had done the trail many times before I attempted it in the summer.

Second, I had already placed caches of water in several spots along the trail, and I had a personal misting device and a small spray bottle (in case one or the other broke). I kept myself misted the whole time, and never even came close to over heating.

Third, I left just before dawn, so the trail was visible using ambient light, which means I could move fast with less chance of a twisted ankle or stepping on a rattler.

Fourth, when I'm in top shape Skyline takes less energy, which means I don't heat up as much internally.

Fifth, I made a projection of the temperature change as I rose in elevation. Based upon the adiabatic lapse rate, I knew that I could count on losing about 7 or 8 degrees per hour based upon my elevation gain (at the time about 2500 feet an hour) , so the hike/run actually got cooler as I went.

So, if you can picture this, I started about 5:00 a.m. or so and it was 88 degrees. But once I was all covered with mist, 88 was a little chilly. In two hours I was about 5000 feet higher, so I had gotten a 15 degree reprieve of what the temperature would have been at that elevation at 7:00, so it was probably around 75-80 degrees. I was in the sun, so I kept using the mist, but much less by that point. If I had run into any problems, I had plenty of water cached at strategic spots so that I could quite reasonably have retreated, even in the heat of the day, without being in any real danger. I have been water skiing and sea-dooing in 100+ temps and had to wear a wet suit because the water, even in the hot dry air, sucks the heat from my body so well that I just about freeze.

So there you have it. If you have a good plan, multiple water caches already in place from cooler weather trips, and have done Skyline and other conditioning enough to gain altitude fairly quickly, then you will more than likely be just fine, just like on any other trip. But, like everyone else here, I agree that it is craziness to just "give it a shot and see what happens". Without proper preparation, a rescue or death is what happens.

z

[Perry]

This is such a controversial topic here that it's tempting to just not say anything, but I'll give my input because I do have a lot of experience being on trails in the heat, and there are tips and secrets that may be helpful for someone who does it or possibly a reality-check that convinces someone to not do it. Or it might just satisfy curious minds to share a few heat secrets. I'll try not to repeat too much what's already been said and add a few thoughts.

The top of the shady slope is a good point to turn around if you're having any doubts. It takes a long time to get from there to flat rock and a gain of only 2,500 feet I think. If you're uncomfortably warm at the top of the shady slope, you'll probably be warm or hot all the way to flat rock and possibly until the trees. Temps usually drop about 3-4 degrees per thousand feet of climbing. Temps usually rise 3-6 degrees per hour in the morning when the sun is up. On rare occasions it can rise faster. Going at sunrise or earlier is very important for a summer Skyline. I know that's already been said, but it's very important.

There are some general tricks for hiking/running in heat: freezing water the night before, carrying a spray bottle or mister, consuming lots of salt, having a short haircut, not wearing a shirt, cutting off the top of your hat or wearing a visor or mesh sunhat, carrying an emergency blanket. But there's really no substitute for experience, training, and acclimatization. Just because somebody can walk across a parking lot when it's 115F doesn't mean they can do a long hike when it's 95F, even if they could do the same hike in cooler weather.

And all these tricks have little subtleties that have to be worked out with experience. A shaved head or 1/8" is noticeably cooler than a 1/4" haircut. On Skyline, it helps to not wear a shirt from start to finish because even if you're not super hot it reduces your sweating and makes it less likely that you'll run out of water or salt before you reach the tram. A mesh hat really has to be see-through mesh or else it's cooler to just not wear a hat. Misters and spray bottles use up water faster than drinking it, so if you don't really really know exactly how much water you need, you could waste it by spraying it and run out. To avoid this you could be carrying a crazy load that is too heavy for your fitness level, although this is a better mistake to make. With freezing water, you have to know how fast it melts so that you can drink it. You can't drink a block of ice, although you can press it against your skin behind a pack to cool yourself and accelerate the melting. An insulated drinking tube helps. With a non-insulated tube, it's better to drink, say every 15 minutes, instead of sipping every minute. This gets colder water into your mouth. An emergency blanket works for shade, but you can't wrap it tightly around your body as you would in cold weather.

Doing Skyline in summer, there's not much room for error.

[David W]

...wouldn't a wet shirt be better than no shirt? Also agree with vented hat, but keep it damp/cool.

Agree strongly with the shaved head. I come from the desert and when I had hair on the top of my head, could tell the difference just as you say.

[Perry]

Yeah, I would say a wet shirt is cooler than no shirt. For a short hike that's definitely doable. On Skyline in summer it could dry very fast, so it could take a massive water haul to keep the shirt wet.

If not wearing is shirt is not a an option (mainly women, but backpack straps can cause skin abrasion), possibly a very thin synthetic white shirt could be almost as cool. I might experiment with a white synthetic shirt and do a "do I feel hot?" test with and without it...

The same could be said about having hair or a hat that holds water. But again, you have to haul all that water up the mountain, and it evaporates fast in the heat. This is something that can be tested by walking around the block in hot weather.

Really enjoyed your "Hell Centro" comment. Haven't heard that one before, but that's how I feel about the entire low desert this time of year.

Forgot to mention another really important tip: knowing your personal limits for dry heat and humid heat. These are comfort limits and danger limits, and they change with acclimatization, fitness level, and cooling methods. Without recent experience, you really have no idea what you're getting yourself into.

[Ed]

Interesting discussion. I won't disagree with the opinions of anybody who has done Skyline multiple times in the summer, even if they disagree with each other. They have credentials that I don't have but respect. Actually, I don't think there is that much disagreement. Cynthia says 100% of us should not attempt Skyline in the summer. Reading Zip's and Perry's advice and conditions makes that about 99.99-99.999%. Note Zip's rate of ascent, for example, 2,500 feet per hour. Consistent with Cynthia's comments, even 1,000 feet per hour for 8,000 feet when the temperature is in the 80's - meaning, with proper timing, the Palm Springs low is in the 80's - is dangerously at or beyond our limits, except for those who HJ calls the 'uberfit'.

[Hikin_Jim]

This is such a controversial topic here that it's tempting to just not say anything, but I'll give my input because I do have a lot of experience being on trails in the heat.

Jim's notes: Perry is a long term desert dweller, a local if you will. Perry is a long distance runner, and a good one at that. Perry is fast, way faster than you. Perry is unusually fast even when compared to other serious long distance runners. I hear runners talk, good runners, and they just shake their heads at Perry's times and wonder how it can be humanly possible. You might not want to think that you can do what Perry does. Just saying.

The top of the shady slope is a good point to turn around if you're having any doubts.

Jim's Notes: The locals have done this trail so many times that they have sort of pet names for the various points along the way. In reality, the "shady" slope isn't shady, except in the early morning hours. It's shady because of the angle of the sun on the terrain. It is not shady because there are nice green trees or anything like that.

There are some general tricks for hiking/running in heat: freezing water the night before, carrying a spray bottle or mister, consuming lots of salt, having a short haircut, not wearing a shirt, cutting off the top of your hat or wearing a visor or mesh sunhat, carrying an emergency blanket. But there's really no substitute for experience, training, and acclimatization. Just because somebody can walk across a parking lot when it's 115F doesn't mean they can do a long hike when it's 95F, even if they could do the same hike in cooler weather.

And all these tricks have little subtleties that have to be worked out with experience. A shaved head or 1/8" is noticeably cooler than a 1/4" haircut. On Skyline, it helps to not wear a shirt from start to finish because even if you're not super hot it reduces your sweating and makes it less likely that you'll run out of water or salt before you reach the tram. A mesh hat really has to be see-through mesh or else it's cooler to just not wear a hat. Misters and spray bottles use up water faster than drinking it, so if you don't really really know exactly how much water you need, you could waste it by spraying it and run out. To avoid this you could be carrying a crazy load that is too heavy for your fitness level, although this is a better mistake to make. With freezing water, you have to know how fast it melts so that you can drink it. You can't drink a block of ice, although you can press it against your skin behind a pack to cool yourself and accelerate the melting. An insulated drinking tube helps. With a non-insulated tube, it's better to drink, say every 15 minutes, instead of sipping every minute. This gets colder water into your mouth. An emergency blanket works for shade, but you can't wrap it tightly around your body as you would in cold weather.

Jim's notes: note the level of detail that Perry has gone into. This is a person who has worked this stuff out over a period of years. This isn't stuff that you read in a book and go off and do it. This is stuff that you work up to.

Doing Skyline in summer, there's not much room for error.

Jim's notes: understatement of the year!

Jim's opinion: Skyline in summer for a first timer is just a plain bad idea. If you live, you probably won't enjoy it. If you're really so all fired up wanting to test yourself against Skyline, then take the time to do it right. Do it late fall or in early spring when you stand a fighting chance. After you've done it a couple dozen times and know intimately what it's like and what it takes, then maybe begin to think about trying it in the summer -- if you really feel the need. Most people are going to be pretty happy just to have done Skyline at all, in any conditions.

Above all else, test yourself before you attempt Skyline in any form at any time of the year. And by test yourself, I mean do some hikes beforehand that are comparable. Skyline involves 8,000 feet of gain. Try a 4,000' gain steep hike. How did that feel? If that was OK, try a 5,000 or 6,000 foot gain hike. If that feels fine, then by all means try for Skyline (just not in Summer). If you've never done even 4,000' of steep gain (half of Skyline), then maybe Skyline isn't such a good idea.

If you want some ideas of hikes with such gain (as well as an account of an actual ascent), please see my ever-so-exciting blog: http://hikinjim.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-skyline-trail.html

You want to do Skyline? Great. But be smart about it -- and for cryin' out loud, don't try it for your first time in summer. Obituaries are so depressing.

HJ