Yet another rescue of Skyline

[Cy Kaicener]

Here is a trip report from the the friend of the guy who was rescued. Scroll down.
http://www.outdoorsclub.org/Pasttrip/Pa ... Udi&area=1

[another guest]

A little information in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing.

Unfortunately forums like this one do not have the ability to control what people do with what is written here. I respect your right to say what you want.....but wish your choice would be silence.

"Do not tell someone Paradise exists..unless you want to pay admission to see it"

We are about to lose the freedom of this route.....

[Hikin_Jim]

I "chatted" briefly with the leader, Udi:

Jim: Udi, one thing you may wish to consider on hikes like Skyline is to keep the group together. I note that Sri got separated from the group and got lost a couple of times. Erik was even further back. If he had gone down either from heat or accident, there wouldn't be anyone there to help him or summon aid. Hardcore hikes in high heat on a not really well defined trail have the potential for fairly serious problems. Anyway, just something to think about. I'm glad you all are OK, and I think you did the right thing in calling for assistance for Erik.

Udi: Thanks Jim for your reply. As far as to keep the group together...You are right. Although,in a hike like this one,we had to move fast,while still dark, the temperature still resonable low (87...) and we all still fresh and energetic. In order to escape the heat I've tried to gain at least 2,000ft by 4:30a (...getting into a bit cooler zone as we kept elevating)

Early in the hike,I have noticed that Sri & Erick are way down there and later assumed (..wrong assumpsion on my part)) that they gave up the pace,turned back and went to the parking lot.

I was dwelling on that throught for the remaining of the climb,trying to call Erick on his cell and finally once we reached the top,he answered to tell us that he is still at 5,000'....

Again,Jim,your remarks are well put and I hope that I learn something

He seems like a decent guy. Hopefully this near miss will get him to thinking. I learned some of my leadership skills (such as they are) the hard way -- bad judgement and paying the price. I'm big proponent of staying together.

[guest]

Alan,
I agree with much of what you said regarding good, helpful info, which I mentioned in my post, but I still would like to have us use discretion. Yes, I believe some have been discouraged from doing the foolish by the good users of this board, but if someone posts: Hey, who's up for skyline on this July day, they can give the wrong idea to many who are incapable.

These are just my suggestions, but I feel info, good or bad, in the wrong hands may cause harm to all of us, (in the form of government action) regarding this trail in particular.

ss

[AlanK]

A little information in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing.

Unfortunately forums like this one do not have the ability to control what people do with what is written here. I respect your right to say what you want.....but wish your choice would be silence.

"Do not tell someone Paradise exists..unless you want to pay admission to see it"

We are about to lose the freedom of this route.....

As I've said many times before on this forum, the Cactus to Coulds hike is getting popular because it is listed in several guidebooks, has received coverage in well-known magazines and newspapers, and is much discussed on the Internet. There is nothing we can do to reverse that.

This forum is the one place where I see people being cautioned against doing the hike in the summer, doing the hike for the first time without a guide, etc. This is the place to learn why not to do it. I think that the information one finds here will save lives.

I believe that we all agree that it is not a good idea to hype the Skyline trail as a great adventure for anyone to tackle anytime. someone needs to spread that word in the face of all of the encouragement out there to "just do it." If we don't get that message out, who will?

[AlanK]

I agree with much of what you said regarding good, helpful info, which I mentioned in my post, but I still would like to have us use discretion. Yes, I believe some have been discouraged from doing the foolish by the good users of this board, but if someone posts: Hey, who's up for skyline on this July day, they can give the wrong idea to many who are incapable.

These are just my suggestions, but I feel info, good or bad, in the wrong hands may cause harm to all of us, (in the form of government action) regarding this trail in particular.

ss -- You make a good point! The last thing I want to see on Skyline is restrictions caused by too many rescues, etc.

[Hikin_Jim]

One "deceptive" thing about Skyline is that it's 11 miles. I literally saw one posting that said "...it's only 11 miles" (emphasis added). I think a lot of people just don't have a real understanding of what 8000' in 11 miles is. FREAKIN' STEEP. The 11 miles works against safety on Skyline. People say to themselves "well, heck, I've done 11 miles before and I'm in decent shape. Yeah, it's 'a little steep,' but I'll just have to work a little harder than usual." Ohmigosh is that so not true.

And then there's that attractive tram at the top. "Hey, I don't have to hike back; this won't be that bad."

Until one has hiked in extreme heat and with hard core sustained steepness, I don't think one is in a position to understand.

I'm just theorizing here because I just can't conceive of wanting to do an 8000' gain hike without having worked my way up to it by doing similar hikes in similar conditions.

I wonder if we shouldn't point people in the direction of things like 1) Vivian Creek to San G, 2) the Momyer Creek straight up to the ridge hike, 3) Mt. San Antonio via Bear Canyon, and 4) Iron Mountain (6000' gain) in the San Gabriels. If you can do those four, then maybe you really are in a position to say, "yes, I can do this."

One look at a topo map, the 100+ degree heat, or just the words, "8000' gain," should take people aback, but it doesn't. Flabbergasting!

OK, I'd better shut up here, but it's just hard for me to wrap my head around people casually trying Skyline. "Oh, I'll just post it on the web and see who shows up."

[AlanK]

Jim -- I agree that people tend to judge difficulty by distance rather than by elevation gain. There are not many day hikes that gain 8000'. This one is particularly tough in that backing out means descending into hell. That point should be emphasized even more than it already is (although Cynthia and others sertainly try to get it across).

I recommend against sending people to Iron Mountain as a training hike for Skyline. Iron is even more deceptive because it's only 7 miles. But, once you get there, the only way out is down into the heat (I purpously left our the San Antonio Ridge option as not being an escape route for a beginner). There is no hope of finding any water until the bottom. And it's awfully steep, so the descent requires more effort than one might think. I think that the only reason that people don't die on Iron is that is is not all that popular. Yet.

[Hikin_Jim]

You may be right that Iron Mtn is more deceptive; I'm not sure. Iron is 15 miles of hiking since you have no tram waiting for you at the top. Maybe people pause more at 15 mi than 11? I don't know.

And you're definitely right about San Antonio ridge. No freakin' way is that an easy way out. On Iron, once you're committed, you're committed.

On Iron one has to deal with heat, lack of shade, lack of water, similar steepness (well, OK, a bit more), similar peak elevation (8007') but with lesser gain (although not by a whole lot). If one does Iron, one definitely has a basis to make a judgement about Skyline.

Hey, maybe we should talk up Iron -- give the RMRU and DSSAR guys a break. Spread out the pain. (kidding! you know I'm kidding)

[HikeUp]

I heard about the C2C hike from the website with day & hiker in its name. I was instantly intrigued. Heck, I've done Mt. Wilson up and back from Sierra Madre, Eaton Canyon, and Chantry Flat (4500'+ each), Vivian Creek to San G., Ski Hut to Baldy, etc. No problem!

Luckily I found this forum while doing the usual due diligence. The thing that most deterred me from attempting this hike is the apparent lack of a well established trail and a good map of the route. I fear getting lost more than anything else on the trail. The elevation gain and the heat/ice can be managed through training and timing (i.e. not starting at 5 am in July, not going up in July ever, going up in January without the ability to handle ice, etc.), but the consequences of getting lost are dire...there is no "out" once you're lost. You're stuck at 6000' with 1 liter of water left with the only option being to head down into the 100+ desert or wander around in desolate canyons trying to make it to the top. It's a freakin desert for feck's sake.

This is not meant to minimize the difficulty of 8,000' in 11 miles or hiking in hot, dry weather, but I feel there is a great danger in getting lost.

The only thing I can initially foresee coming from an increase in rescues on this route is a push to make it an established trail to decrease the chance of getting lost. Lot's of potential issues with doing so of course (liability, permits, etc.), so it isn't necessarily a good thing. Word of this trail is spreading and it won't stop spreading. Perhaps it is best to flood the airwaves with information regarding how to safely do this hike. I don't think being silent about this hike is going to be effective given that word of this trail is already out and it's not going to fall off of the radar.

This forum reinforced in me that doing due diligence before all hikes is essential. Hike with a partner if the risks are high and don't abandon him/her for the sake of summiting.

One day I hope to do this hike, and I am glad to know I have a critical and essential resource in the people who use this forum.