What are the chances of doing C2C a week from now?

[OtherHand]

Assuming that the conditions on Skyline are as extreme as recent posts have speculated, its amazing that the two guys in shorts and tennis shoes made it from the top of the tram to the east end of the traverse.

I wouldn't call it speculation. You've had firsthand reports from two people who were on Skyline in the past couple days at the worst spot, the traverse. To be fair, the conditions are decent for someone who is familiar with winter alpine travel and is properly equipped (crampons and ice axe at least). For someone who is not, at the present time the last 1,500' may kill them. And that's not an overstatement.

And as Nick mentioned, the traverse stopped these two guys cold (pun intended). Remember the traverse is a north facing slope where snow and ice linger much longer. But you don't find this out until you've already climbed 6,500' vertically and turning back is not really an option.

[bluerail]

from the museum to 7000' is very easy....it's making it that last bit that is very different. the way i see it, the trailhead is at flatrock, thats where it all starts. you might have to walk 8 miles to get there, but thats where the real work begins. cover that with uneven ice, snow and buried rocks and make it where you cant find the trail....?

[Rick F]

Assuming that the conditions on Skyline are as extreme as recent posts have speculated, its amazing that the two guys in shorts and tennis shoes made it from the top of the tram to the east end of the traverse.

I wouldn't call it speculation. You've had firsthand reports from two people who were on Skyline in the past couple days at the worst spot, the traverse. To be fair, the conditions are decent for someone who is familiar with winter alpine travel and is properly equipped (crampons and ice axe at least). For someone who is not, at the present time the last 1,500' may kill them. And that's not an overstatement.

And as Nick mentioned, the traverse stopped these two guys cold (pun intended). Remember the traverse is a north facing slope where snow and ice linger much longer. But you don't find this out until you've already climbed 6,500' vertically and turning back is not really an option.

Otherhand, Somehow I missed the "two first-hand reports" I see that NickMSJ was there late Saturday evening. Which other poster has actually been on the traverse of Skyline in last few days? NickMSJ's post is somewhat of a first-hand report, although you may not realize that snow conditions can change drastically from being soft in the warmer daytime temperatures then turning to hard ice as the temperature drops into the night. I believe that turning back is always the most important option to be considered. If you can't make it back down you have no business going up in the first place. Or as Ed Visteurs says: " summiting is optional, getting back safe is mandatory".

To all other concerned posters, I am recommending to my group that a different route or destination with less exposure should be selected.

[OtherHand]

Otherhand, Somehow I missed the "two first-hand reports" I see that NickMSJ was there late Saturday evening. Which other poster has actually been on the traverse of Skyline in last few days? NickMSJ's post is somewhat of a first-hand report, although you may not realize that snow conditions can change drastically from being soft in the warmer daytime temperatures then turning to hard ice as the temperature drops into the night. I believe that turning back is always the most important option to be considered. If you can't make it back down you have no business going up in the first place. Or as Ed Visteurs says: " summiting is optional, getting back safe is mandatory".

To all other concerned posters, I am recommending to my group that a different route or destination with less exposure should be selected.

I was also out there that lovely evening with Nick.

Your turning back philosophy is wise, and I agree with it. But Skyline puts an asterisk on it, particularly for first timers. Here's the issue....

In winter you don't reach the usual crux of the trail until you reach about 7,500', which is the start of the traverse. The conditions can go from very nice to VERY bad in just a couple hundred yards. Yet you're only a measly 1,000' below the notch. There is a huge temptation to push on, especially because you can see the tram and it seems so close, and you end up with the Saturday night scenario.

If you do the "wise" thing and decide to descend, you are now faced with a descent of almost a mile and a half. If you talk to most Skyliners, you'll hear repeatedly that the descent is worse than the climb. It's quite likely that you would end up spending the night on the trail. Uncomfortable, but survivable. But a descent from the start of the traverse remains an incredibly nasty prospect. If an underequipped individual reaches the traverse in a snow-covered condition, they are stuck badly between a rock and a hard place.

I mean no slight to your alpine abilities. You've been up Skyline and you know what you're getting in to. The folks that end up getting rescued are usually first-timers. If you and your party are equipped and reasonably competent you could make it without difficulty (or as much without difficulty as is possible on Skyline). But you asked for condition reports and I wanted to give you as frank a one as possible.

[zippetydude]

Here's a report from a guy over on the San G board.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... 99f427bee2

z

[Rick F]

Otherhand,

I apologize, as I did not realize that you were with NickMSJ on last Saturday's rescue effort. I hold you and all SAR workers/volunteers/good samaritans in the highest regard.

I also know that the regulars on this board and the "Skyliners" are trying to be as candid as possible regarding the potential hazards.

I find it best to sift out the facts from the well meaning advice that is offered along with the trail condition reports. If not, I'd be too scared to ever venture into the mountains.

[Rick F]

Here's a report from a guy over on the San G board.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... 99f427bee2

z

Zippetydude,

Thanks for the post. I clicked on the link and it took me to a facebook photo album. I don't subscribe to face book but I could view the pictures. They have some great pictures! Do you know what date these guys made their trip?

[Nick-SJM]

Those are some great pictures. That is what it looked like last Saturday evening. Only imagine it midnight after a long day, much of that was at least partially frozen over and it is dark. Great fun. We are accepting applications at RMRU.

[zippetydude]

Nick: Now there's an idea. If someone really likes adventures going into tough situations, RMRU or SAR might be a perfect outlet for that energy!

Rick: I think they went on the 23rd. Incidentally, that sifting out is the key. Great feedback, given by other board members who understand both the risk and the desire to go, who work at arriving at the correct balance themselves.

Hypocritically, I sometimes find myself cautioning others about doing something that I would readily do myself! I've been warned not to do Skyline in the summer. I did it one July when the high was 118. I took reasonable precautions, prepared well, and knew the trail in advance. I was fine. But I would definitely tell someone else to be very careful if they were to try it.

I've done Skyline in the snow, but never encountered ice. I did San G with Steve and Fernando just a couple weeks ago. Steve and I turned around just shy of the peak due to ice. I'll try it again, but I would surely warn someone else about the dangers along with giving input.

Sifting through those warnings is important, though. I've been advised countless times (though not on this board) to never run alone in the wilderness. The last 10 years of my life would have been much less enjoyable if I had listened to that advice. Often times, it's those very runs which restore my sanity. I've been told to always carry the 10 essentials. I'm guessing water is one of those, but I'm not sure. So far, I seem to be doing okay without the other 9.

Like you, I'm not reckless, but neither am I shooting for zero risk. We all find our balance. I hope you guys have fun either way. If you happen to be going up San G's north face as an alternative, maybe I'll see you there!

z

[Rick F]

Zippetydude,

San Gorgonio is one of the options for our plan B. Do you use the Dry Lake trail as your approach to the north face?