Time to "FIX" the Skyline "trail"

[Perry]

Actually a few of us have been discussing that idea. Walt and Halhiker come to mind, and I've glanced to the southeast wondering if that would work. On one occasion several years ago I went down an east-facing slope from a notch on the Desert View trail, and it was just scree, class 2. The north facing slope on that ridge has less tree cover and more sun exposure, and I did notice Thursday of last week that it appeared you could scramble around and avoid those colouirs. But I didn't take a good look down into that canyon that separates the two ridges.

[Bivouac]

As a newcomer to this site, i am a little hesitant to speak my mind, however thats what a forum is for, right?

Also...as an Alaskan...i despise over-regulation, seemingly usually a knee-jerk bureaucratic reaction due to some mid-level manager getting his p--p-- slapped for not doing due diligence in problem forecasting...whatever that actually means.

That said, it seems appropriate to do something rather than nothing as there has been so much public comment and it appears that there is reason to believe that eventually change will occur.

How about trying to get some kind of consensus here for a meeting (with live people) to address the various inputs?

My trail thoughts are similar to a few . . .

Do think the addition of a technical route the last 800 feet or so, to avoid the shaded chutes, would allow for more winter use and less visible use on the top end...a good thing yes? Also would help to alleviate some of the increasing environmental damage caused by all the feet up there. And just maybe we actually SHOULD do some trail (switchback) improvement. . . if for no other reason than environmental. Would hate to lose those wonderful trees. . .

Technical cont. . . Nubies would most likely read that the only hikes going off were technical and so therefore would not attempt. We just want to get our winter hikes in to long valley safely and i see no other way to do this but to make to take it away from the chutes.

The idea of a loop out from high up is intriguing as well. I am not topo savy enough with the area to propose a route, but you people surely are. If it's doable, and the State folk don't object, then i'd say let's build a little bit at a time.

As far as trail markers, I suggest three:

...at the point of descent and traverse, down and across the first big chute...i feel one info sign at the start that shows the upcoming switchbacks, the crag, all relative to what the trail looks like ahead, would keep people from getting stuck and lost over near chino canyon. . .

Maybe a good arrow at the dry falls (or flat rock...?) near 6500' would keep unfamiliar hikers from wandering around in the bushes. (i once did on my first ascent)

Finally, a sign at 3200' level (where you can first actually see the tram). . saying perhaps:

1 mile of very tough vertical ascent lies ahead. . .
If reaching here took 3 hours, you have 5 hours remaining.

The first time i reached this spot and saw the tram i figured 1-2 hours. Wonder how many other hikers have totally mis-judged this as well.

Thanks for the opportunity of having a voice here.

[Rick M]

Bivouac said...

How about trying to get some kind of consensus here for a meeting (with live people) to address the various inputs?

That sounds like a good idea…perhaps a get together afterwards?

Do think the addition of a technical route the last 800 feet or so, to avoid the shaded chutes, would allow for more winter use and less visible use on the top end...a good thing yes? Also would help to alleviate some of the increasing environmental damage caused by all the feet up there. And just maybe we actually SHOULD do some trail (switchback) improvement. . . if for no other reason than environmental. Would hate to lose those wonderful trees. . .

I would like to see some trail improvement in the switchback area if not help people stay on the trail then at least minimize the erosion in the area.

Technical cont.. . Nubies would most likely read that the only hikes going off were technical and so therefore would not attempt. We just want to get our winter hikes in to long valley safely and I see no other way to do this but to make to take it away from the chutes.

I would not want to see the top turned into a technical rock climb cause I think it would eliminate a lot of people that want to do the hike. I do however think the top section can be rerouted in the winter to avoid the tree shaded steep area and help reduce the slick icy problems.

The idea of a loop out from high up is intriguing as well. I am not topo savvy enough with the area to propose a route, but you people surely are. If it's doable, and the State folk don't object, then I’d say let's build a little bit at a time.

I always enjoy loops compared with up and down the same way; I just don’t know the area enough to know from what height to make the turn around part (for those unable to complete the Skyline for whatever the reason.

As far as trail markers, I suggest three:

...at the point of descent and traverse, down and across the first big chute...I feel one info sign at the start that shows the upcoming switchbacks, the crag, all relative to what the trail looks like ahead, would keep people from getting stuck and lost over near chino canyon. . .

I think improving the tread of the trail will be better…how many signs like this do you find on other trails? And this is a trail; just go to Google Earth and you can follow it from space (till it gets to the switchbacks in the trees.

Maybe a good arrow at the dry falls (or flat rock...?) near 6500' would keep unfamiliar hikers from wandering around in the bushes. (I once did on my first ascent)

I think improvement of the trail here would be better and block off the false trails that so many other “lost hikers” keep using and thus luring others to follow in their footsteps (also visible on Google)

Finally, a sign at 3200' level (where you can first actually see the tram). . saying perhaps:

1 mile of very tough vertical ascent lies ahead. . .
If reaching here took 3 hours, you have 5 hours remaining.

Good idea, and for those that don’t like signs…turn your head!

The first time I reached this spot and saw the tram I figured 1-2 hours. Wonder how many other hikers have totally mis-judged this as well.

Likewise, how many get to the switchbacks and see the tram and tempt the snow instead of turning back.

Thanks for the opportunity of having a voice here.

I’m sure everyone’s voice is appreciated on this.

[mnfry]

Sorry I am so late in adding to the trail fixing discussion.

I first hiked the trail about 20 years ago. I was assisted in finding the trail by a young woman from Palm Desert named Bern Schwen. She told me that it was an old Indian trail that was modified by the original Tram construction crew so they could hike directly to the Tram.

She said that the Indian's trail went south to Long Valley, and avoided the snow.

I expected to see this in the postings. Are there any original Skyline Trail hikers around that know this story?

I agree that the trail should be redirected back to Long Valley, and that many deaths and injuries will be prevented.

Mike Fry.

[FIGHT ON]

wow, now that is interesting!

[Rick M]

Outstanding! I first did it with a lot of "route finding" in the 70s but never heard that story...it makes sense to me though as I never saw any native Americans with crampons and ice axe. I figured the hikers were going through the trees cause it was a bit shorter, and the trees are a welcome relief from the sun when you're finishing up around noon or so.

Sometime soon I want to do some "scouting" of a winter alternate "trail". I think it would be cool if it went the same way the native Americans did (since they lived there I would suspect that they new the best way up.

[magikwalt]

I have a copy of a trails map dated 1933 that shows both the Gordon Trail and the Idyllwild Trail. The Idyllwild trail follows the route of the tram hike. Skyline is on this map but it follows the route of what we presently call the Lykken Trail.

The Idyllwild trail has a distinct right turn and then a left turn as it nears the top.

[Rick M]

For my birthday this morning we got called out to a search off highway 74 and as I drove down from Hesperia, I thought I would try Skyline if the search got canceled or finished early. I used to do prospecting in the Palm Canyon area almost 20 years ago to the day and that area hasn't changed much. Even at the 4-5,000'+ elevation, it's getting pretty hot now out in the sun (saw two rattlers and lots of flowers). On my way home I thought I would go up to the picnic tables on Skyline just for something to do and maybe meet some of you on this list.

Been years since I did Skyline and it sure seems different...now a well worn trail at least to the tables. I was surprised to find quite a few "parallel" trails and cuts on that small section and have heard that there are places higher up where people can have difficulty choosing the right path. I did get messed up at this place where the trail suddenly U turned and started to head back down. The white paint on the rock said "up" but I backtracked to see if I made a wrong turn somewhere. Going back "up" that was really going down I saw the arrow pointing "up" to the museum and realized what was going on (some SAR person huh ). I was thinking if the trail higher up is anything like this short section, I could see how new first time Skyliners can get disoriented off the "correct" line.

I got a chance to talk to some forest service people about the trail and they directed me to the monument and state people since the trail is no longer in forest service jurisdiction. Since the office in Palm Springs was closed, hiking up to the tables seemed like a good idea. On my way back down the trail, it looked like someone had come up part way since my tracks had been stepped on. Also looked like they had a dog (or else a cougar that can't retract his claws

By the way, does
"AA" mean abort above?
"BB" mean butt biter?
"CC" mean can't curse?
"DD" mean dangerous desert?
"EE" mean enough effort?
"FF" mean feeling faint?
Anymore of these above the tables?

[KathyW]

Happy Birthday Rick!


Yes, lots of different trails but they at least most of them lead the to the same place - the shortcut trails.

[Rick M]

Those short cut trails that don't lead to the same place can be real killers

THETRACK said

I have been a regualr for twice a year since 2001. Once in the Spring and once in the Fall. We started at Ramone at 5:19am and had a 7 hour pace going until....my memory went "bye-bye" at the final ascent and we literally took over 40 minutes to locate the trail up. How embarassing!!!...

One can follow a great deal of the "trail" on Google Earth. There are places that people get "lost" looking for the trail in places. For those of you that have been up the trail numerous times, it may not seem like a big deal but for first timers this can be a BIG DEAL if you get lost on steep ice in the winter or on hot dry ground in the summer (like now). I need to get my butt on the trail soon so I can make an assesment of the trail since it's been 30 years since I've done it.

IMHO, many people might be doing it now because they believe it to be a trail that one can follow without getting lost by taking a wrong turn that perhaps many others have also taken by mistake. This was one of the reasons for a fatality on the Skyline in recent years. If you’ve been hiking a lot, you probably know about those places and when I find them I try to obliterate the wrong path. Since many of you that do the Skyline regularly know the “correct” path, perhaps I might be able to join you on a trip up. Realize however, I would be going up with the intent to define the trail by eliminating these spurs that would take time and may lead me to a 12-14 hour time to the tram.

For me, weekends are difficult for me to arrange. Anyone available during the week and interested?

ps If not for fellows hikers, let's do it for the environment