Time to "FIX" the Skyline "trail"

[Perry]

That sign has so many words that it might be difficult for a first-time hiker to take it seriously. I would reduce it down to 3 points:

1. Requires ~2 gallons in summer time + carbos and salt (photo of two gallon jugs and some pretzels).

2. Requires ice axe and crampons in winter and early spring (show photos of somebody traversing and somebody climbing up to Long Valley with ice axes).

3. Some people get lost in the dark or the snow, so you have to start early. Show this photo:


Pictures paint a thousand words, and extraneous text and regulations are a major turn-off. That sign recommends a whole bunch of things that are nice to have, but not especially important, in my opinion. The sign is south-facing, and a polycarbonate cover would protect from UV.

[asabat]

This problem I have with requiring a permit to provide an opportunity to educate hikers about safety on this route is imagining requirements (besides having to drive up early to get a permit while the office is open) is something like this:

"Permits must be picked up in person at the FS office in Idyllwild, Monday through Friday, between 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. Please arrive one hour before closing to allow sufficient time for a review of the rules and safety issues and for inspection of your equipment. Permits must be picked up the day before your hike, but not more than 24 hours before leaving the trailhead. All hikers must have a PLB and satellite phone, and must carry 3 gallons of water. All hikers must sign the permit in the presence of the issuing office, and signatures must be notarized. (Notaries are not available at the issuing office.) First aid kits are required and must include at least two splints, one of which must be a traction splint. A four-season tent is required between the months of September and May in case an overnight stay is requried by conditions. (Overnight stays require an additional permit which must be obtained in advance; no exceptions.) A harness and 50 meters of climbing rope is required if rocks are visible. If no rocks are visible, crampons and ice axes must be used. To protect wildlife, no sharp objects are permitted at any time, including knives, axes, and cleats. Hikers are advised to read all posted notices. Please disregard any notices that have not been updated to reflect current conditions. A doctor's release, including evidence of vaccination for influenze, hepatitis, rattlesnake, and malaria will be required before issuing a permit. Hiking after sunset is prohibited. Hiking when the temperature exceeds 85 degrees or is below 40 degrees is prohibited. Stay on trail at all times. Evidence of medical insurance and emergency roadside service is requried. Have a nice day."

[AlanK]

I sure hope that the relevant authorities do not resort to either permits or a well-maintained trail for Skyline. I agree with the prevailing sentiment that it is a route, not a trail. Perhaps warning signs, placed right at the beginning (Ramon Drive and the Museum), should emphasize that fact. In addition, it should be made clear that people get lost near the top and are trapped by winter conditions or extreme heat down below -- the hike is very risky for anyone lacking the proper experience and fitness..

I understand the sentiment behind the "no rescue" idea. However, in my opinion it will never happen. I know people who do SAR work. They are not the type of people who would fail to respond knowing that a fellow human being is in trouble. And I am very glad for that!

Insisting that victims pay for rescues is also not a great idea. SAR folks want to be called in as early as possible when things go wrong. The last thing they need is victims who calculate that they can get out of a bad situation on their own and then get into even worse problems, all because they want to avoid a large expense.

One could imagine a system in which fines are levied for rescues necessitated by stupidity and lack of common sense. On the other hand, do we want some sedentary judge deciding who pays and who doesn't? People here, myself included, think that Ellen Coleman was brilliant and resourceful on February 2 - 4. Some guy on the SGWA Board thinks she was brainless. I am happy that she was rescued and not charged for the service and would not change the system that saved her.

The fact is that agancies, including police and fire departments, that deal with people in trouble find themselves helping out in a lot of situaitons in which the victims were stupid or irresponsible. The stories of people stuck on mountains are nothing compared to what happens in cities and towns every day. This is all part of the burden of carrying on a civilization.

[glamisking]

asa- that was amazing! Written with the same clarity and fine print which ever gov. organization uses. I could not stop laughing.

[Hikin_Jim]

Famous signs of the San Jacintos:


(with apologies to Alan who is hopefully OK with my pulling this photo from an old thread)

Couldn't find a decent photo of the other sign with the gallons and whatnot on it. Anyone got a decent photo?


Speaking of old threads, here's one that discussed signage at length (you might have to read through a bit to get to the sign part):
http://www.palm-springs-photography.com ... sc&start=0

And another: http://www.palm-springs-photography.com ... gn+warning

[AlanK]

You can "steal" my photos anytime, Jim. I should point out that the perosn in the picture is EricK, who has done Skyline 10 times since the tender age of 12 (he's now a legal voter).

[Rick M]

The Skyline may have required route finding in the ‘60s but today it is a trail (just read the many posts on this site). If people refer to it “as a trail” then that is what it has become. Whitney’s Mountaineers “Route” is a rated climbing route (class 2-3) and as such is different than the trail up Mt. Whitney. I think people realize the difference when they go up Whitney. If they want a trail they take the trail, if they want some adventure and have some experience they may go the Mountaineers Route and if they desire climbing, they have one of many east face “routes”. Plus, when they go up Whitney, if you hit snow or ice, turning back is an obvious solution since you have to go back down anyway.

The Skyline “Trail” is a different thing. After climbing 7,000’ or so feet and running into snow or ice, it is quicker/easier to continue to the top and ride the tram down. That would strongly influence anyone’s decision to continue, even if they had the education of another warning sign or permit (I loath the permit idea).

As for preservation of the environment, there are places in the area of question where erosion and scaring from all the traffic going in a multitude of directions is taking its toll, something a “traditional trail” would lessen. Imagine what some of the other areas in the San Jacintos would look like if the trails weren’t there and people practiced “route finding” wherever they pleased…still a possibility but given a good trail, most stick to it.

Many of the search and rescues and recoveries I’ve been on in the area do have to do with people losing the trail and getting “off route”. Someone on this site recently said “I haven’t been up Skyline lately (too many people these days)”. Because of this, something needs to be done for these people. Simply saying they don’t know what they are doing or charge them for rescue (if they survive) is not an answer.

I do about 20% trail and 80% off trail and 50% or more solo. There have been times I’ve taken chances. I usually don’t expect that when I do a “trail”. A recent photo posted by Hikin_Jim from the trail says “NO WATER ON TRAIL…” I’ve done most of the trails in the Grand Canyon including do dry camps but again, the connotation the word “trail” conveys to most something easily followed. As a SAR person for over 30 years in different parts of the country I have seen a lot but there are times when something needs to be done.

[AlanK]

Sigh. You do have a good point and I am not inclined to argue symantics. In using "route" over "trail" I was referring mainly to the last rocky section before Long Valley. There is still discussion here of people being unable to find the route/trail. On the other hand, without snow cover, it is getting more obvious all the time. So I would not argue very strongly that there is no trail at this point. You also make a good point about the damage done by lots of people doing unnecessary route finding all along the hike. Still, I would rather see a couple of strategically-located signs rather than an official-looking trail. Actually, I would love to see, at the bottom, a warning not to cut switchbacks along the "route." (By the way, Whitney MR regulars complain a lot about the effects of increasing traffic -- I am not sure it gets less use than Skyline.)

[Andy]

So what is the general consensus here, perhaps an old fashioned letter writing campaign?

[halhiker]

Don't want to get off topic too much in discussing semantics but a trail is generally considered a maintained path and a route is generally an unmaintained path. Now there are sections on the up Lone Pine Creek on the Mountaineers Route that are more a trail than anything up the Skyline. It's really above Iceberg Lake where you can go up the chute or up the East Face or Buttress where Whitney differs from what you have on Skyline. Other than that they are very similar.

Now as for the name, it was called the Skyline Trail when I did it twenty years ago and it was nearly as beaten down as it is now. At that time there were probably less than fifty people who even knew it existed and I never, ever saw anyone else on it. In the area I think the Gordon Trail and the Guadalupe Trail share the same "route" designation. They are not really trails, i.e. maintained, but they maintained merely by the passing of hikers upon the ground.