Hiker lost on San Jacinto

[guest]

Phydeux,

I think you right, I leave the peak on that ol trail / route, but you need to know when to veer right (south).

Hey Perry, great idea, make the tram go to the peak, then people won't get lost, maybe a restaurant, ice rink, paragliding....

ss

[Cy Kaicener]

A helicopter was flying above Skyline all day today. He was found on the upper part of Snowcreek today. http://rmru.org will soon have the story

[cynthia23]

A couple of times on the peak when there has been heavy snow I have started to wander off to the north and gotten disoriented. However I always realized my mistake within a few minutes and veered back. I agree that it's very hard to understand how you could wander off down into the snow creek chute when there is no snow. Uh, wasn't the Banning Pass below kind of a clue?? (also very hard to know how you could do this and stay alive!!!) But if it was dark and he was fatigued, I guess it is possible ...just bizarre. But I guess there are no end to the peculiar things people do in the wilderness ...

[Jim Bakos]

List:

Yeah Phydeux, we think he went wrong at the Miller saddle. Turned left instead of right, but that’s just an educated guess.

We’ve been doing this for almost 50 years now. Good people get lost, and wander off in any number of directions. They make mistakes, honest mistakes. Sure some are overly foolish; sure some push the envelope. But most just “get lost”.

We’re here to bring them back alive. FOR FREE!

You don’t get charged by the Fire Department to put your burning house out; you don’t get charged by Law Enforcement to catch the guy burglarizing your home; the guy fixing the pothole in your street doesn’t charge you. Well... I suppose they actually do, in a way: Through the taxes you pay to the local, county, state and federal governments.

We, RMRU, don’t charge. And, if someone from RMRU said the subject would be charged, I want the team members name so I can have a stern talk with him or her!

BTW: His wilderness permit listed his state of residence as Arizona (not Texas or Nevada).

--Jim (the guy that was THERE for the whole search)

[Tim Le]

We’ve been doing this for almost 50 years now. Good people get lost, and wander off in any number of directions. They make mistakes, honest mistakes. Sure some are overly foolish; sure some push the envelope. But most just “get lost”.

We’re here to bring them back alive. FOR FREE!

Jim, I really admire you guys. RMRU never judges the people who they help; they just want to help them. You've been very consistent about this. People get into trouble no matter who they are. Stuff happens. It's not like this guy was doing anything unusual. He was just hiking to the peak from the tram. He got a permit as required. He just got lost. Heck, he's not even from around here!

Being experienced, prepared, or knowing the true dangers of the wilderness doesn't guarantee something won't happen to you either. The last few deaths and accidents on Mt. Baldy were by really experienced mountain climbers. Most of the winter accidents on Whitney are by experienced climbers. The last two fatal falls from Angels Landing in Zion were by experienced hikers, yet thousands of regular tourists climb it every year. Sometimes these accidents are because the experienced person was too confident and thought it couldn't happen to them since they are so experienced. Other times, it's just bad luck and stuff happens.

You don’t get charged by the Fire Department to put your burning house out; you don’t get charged by Law Enforcement to catch the guy burglarizing your home; the guy fixing the pothole in your street doesn’t charge you. Well... I suppose they actually do, in a way: Through the taxes you pay to the local, county, state and federal governments.

Another analogy are all the idiotic, inattentive drivers on the roads. There are way more of them than people coming to the wilderness unprepared and needing to be rescued. Yet the fire department or CHP don't charge them when they get into a wreck (unless they broke a law).

[Hikin_Jim]

Jim (Bakos):

I don't know if you'd have time to reply (no hurry), but if you do, I'd be very curious to know what Richard did to make it through what must have been two very cold nights. I'd also be very curious if you had any comments like "if only he had carried an 'X,' he'd have been a lot better off." While I don't like to see people in harm's way (searchers included), I always am interested in "lessons learned." Your insights would be appreciated if you have time. Get some sleep first of course!

HJ

[magikwalt]

As noted on the RMRU's site they are a volunteer organization and have made it clear they do not charge for rescues. The individual counties however have a system of reimbursing each other for emergency services. I've been trying to get data from Riverside County for the last 7 months and have failed as yet.

The system could be similiar to what happens if you are in an accident. Your insurance company gets reimbursed from someone else's insurance company. This could lead to a situtation where RMRU doesn't charge but that doesn't stop the county from charging for their resources which were used. Riverside might ask the county of residency to reimburse. The county of residency may or may not proceed against the individual.

All of this certainly doesn't stop the ambulance service from charging.

[Jim Bakos]

Gang:

First off: Sorry for the rants yesterday. I’d just come off a two-day search, and hit the board to see what the talk of the search was like. We in the national Mountain SAR (MRA) Community have been fighting the “charge for rescue” stuff for quite some time. As far as I know, only one person has actually been charged for a mountain rescue. This was awhile back, and it was because the agency doing the rescue was a fire department that had to travel out of their territory. This was in Colorado, and they failed to call the local Mountain SAR unit first.

You can be charged for illegal activities (climbing the north face, etc.). But I haven’t heard of any back-charges other than at ski resorts and national parks.

The county does bill the subject’s county of residency. We even asked about this at the search, and didn’t get a clear answer from our Sheriff’s liaison on how all that works.

Then there’s the mutual-aide situation on top of that. Once we go over one 24-hour operational period, we get a state OES number and have other teams join the search – We had DSSAR, Rim, SBSO, San Diego, SB Cave and other teams on this search as well – plus the additional helicopters (LA Air-5, SB Air Rescue 7 and CHP). This is all done at the state level.

I have never heard of any of the folks we’ve rescued being charged for our services, ever. And I guess that’s the point I’d like to make. Our Sheriff’s Airwing went to pick someone up last week to do a quick evacuation. The subject refused to get on the helicopter for fear of being charged, the chopper had to return to base, and they sent a radio car to pick them up. The subject wouldn’t have been charged for the ride, but much money was wasted in a worthless round trip flight and a car being dispatched as well.

We don’t want folks being afraid of asking for our help because they fear they can’t pay the (nonexistent) bill.

Next: Richard was very scared (as anyone should be on the north face!), he was certain that he wasn’t going to make it out alive. I don’t know what Richard was carrying in his daypack, as we didn’t do the debriefing, but I did a set of sidebars for National Geographic Explorer not too long ago on signaling devices. Environmental gear is a must, but most don’t think about signaling rescuers. If we can’t see or hear you, we can’t rescue you effectively. If John Donavin had started a large fire like Gina and Brandon did with his spare matches, he might still be alive today.

I don’t advocate starting fires in the wilderness, mind you. But it’s twice saved lives in just as many years…

We found a gal once when she used the silver inside of a Power Bar wrapper to signal the helicopter. We found a couple just awhile ago because they signaled with a red bandana. It all helps!

Thank you one and all for your kind words about our team.

Hike safe!

--Jim

[Hikin_Jim]

Thanks for your thoughts and info.

[halhiker]

Jim B.
Thanks for the info and the discussion on charging for rescue. There have been some heated discussions in the past on that topic. Most of the board regulars come down on the side of not charging for rescues while a few wanted it considered.

I think it's important for us as a society to help those in need and I can think of few greater needs than the immediate need for rescue in a perilous situation. For some people it is literally a life or death situation.

I commend the SAR teams for all their efforts and, again, appreciate your comments on this topic.

Hal