For Local Regulars Only

[zippetydude]

Thanks for the clarification hal, I had figured as much, but I've never led groups on hikes, and certainly have never experienced a personal tragedy like the one you mentioned, so I wasn't clear what you were referring to. Here's a quote you might appreciate:

Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped. Elbert Hubbard.

Incidentally, was your "flesh wound" posting a reference to the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail? That's one of my favorite spoof scenes of all time.

z

[halhiker]

Well, I don't lead groups anymore; babysitting is not my thing.

Yes, my comment about the flesh wound was a reference to Monty Python (I'm glad somebody got it).

And Einstein said something very similar to your Hubbard quote: he said, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits".

Have a fun get together everyone. I'll be in Tahoe!

Hal

[HikeUp]

I got the Monty Python reference too! Um...just saying. Okay...never mind.

[zippetydude]

HikeUp: Well spoken.

z

[cynthia23]

I'm sure everyone will be shocked and amazed to hear how strongly I agree with Halhiker about the utter folly of leading group hikes up Skyline during the summer months.

Of course I personally know Zip so do not have qualms about him going.

I am so sorry to hear about your personal loss of a friend to Skyline, HalHiker. If it is not too painful or private to relate, could you tell us the circumstances of his death and what happened? Perhaps it would serve to teach others about the hazards of this beautiful but not-to-be-taken-lightly trail ....

[halhiker]

I'll touch on three experiences that helped form my opinions on the perils of being unprepared on Skyline.

1. Getting members of a group to understand the difficulty of the task cannot be underestimated. I had one little old lady swear to me she would be able to do it. She'd done the Grand Canyon, Whitney and she hiked A LOT, she said. Now I don't suffer from ageism. One of my best hiking buddies is Carl Garczynski, who is in his mid-seventies and a phenom. He's actually leaving to climb Mt. Elbrus in Russia tomorrow. This lady, however, gave me a bad feeling. I tried to dissuade her but she was persistent and I relented. Once we got on the trail it was obvious she was too slow. Before we got half way to the picnic tables she was 15 minutes behind. I finally convinced her to go back. She asked why we were going so fast and I told her because we had a long way to go and needed to get above the heat. Now, it could have been a younger person instead of an old lady but my point is that you can't gauge someone ability until you've tested it and Skyline is not the place to test it. I soon came up with a rule that if I haven't hiked with you, you aren't going. Period.

2. Being fit is not enough. I had one person who wanted to go who was in excellent shape. He was an experienced mountain biker and very fit. But hiking uphill for hours on end, in the sun is a different story. Suffering from dehydration, he literally had to be carried up to the Tram from Long Valley. He then went to Desert Hospital for 3 or 4 units of IV fluids. (The rest of us stayed at the Alpine Lounge for our own re-hydration in the form of a carbonated high carbohydrate grain beverage). It was after those two experiences that I quit leading group hikes on Skyline. When you get a group of people, you never know who's capable of what.

3. The trail can be unforgiving. The friend I lost was James Simons a few years ago. His problem was not the heat but ice. He slipped near the upper station and feel between 400-500 feet the his death. James was an experienced hiker, a member of search and rescue but not experienced on ice and not prepared for it. It was during that period a few years ago where several hikers in So Cal slipped and fell on ice in the local mountains. I told James two days before his hike not to go, that the conditions weren't good and to wait a couple of weeks and I'd go with him. He'd never done the trail. He had two other friends tell him the same thing. IMO, his main mistake was a late start. He wanted to go to church in the AM and started too late. He got up near Kauffman Crag in the dark, took a wrong line and slipped on the ice. The gal who was going to pick him up told me that he tried to call my number before he fell but the call never got through. No reception up there. Had his call gotten through I really think we could've gotten to him with crampons, ice axes and ropes. But it was not to be. In a way, he was lucky because it was over quick. For someone who gets heat stroke, it's a long, painful experience. Plus, I hate the idea of putting the men and women on our SARS teams out in this weather. Personally, I've told my wife if I don't show up on time, give me 24 hours to get out. If I'm in trouble I know how to signal and if I'm not, I don't want to put someone out having to come look for me. And if I'm dead, leave me there. I'll be closer to heaven that way.

I know the locals understand these things just like locals in other areas understand the perils in their own mountains. It's the out of town hikers looking for a challenge that scare me. They don't understand heat, they don't understand that amount of elevation gain. They should wait until October. The mountain's not going anywhere.

Hal

[Hikin_Jim]

Hal: Was that in 2004? We were losing 1 or 2 hikers a week in early 2004. I think people had a hard time wrapping their heads around just how bad the ice conditions were in S. Cal. Some really experienced hikers, including my dad, died on that ice.

[cynthia23]

HalHiker and HikingJim, thank you for your sobering reminder that the wilderness is ... wild. HJ and HH, my condolences on the tragic loss of your father and friend, respectively.

I agree with HH that fitness, per se, doesn't necessarily
mean one will cope well with Skyline. I also think that very fit people sometimes overextend themselves in the first two hours without understanding that they are going to have to sustain at that level for many hours, and it will only get harder. Then, by the time they get to 5 thousand feet, they bonk. As Cy, MagikWalt, SS, and others have mentioned, managing and regulating your energy very carefully is the key to success/survival on this very challenging trail ...I have learned to attend carefully to my heartrate, breathing, temp of my face, etc. In a way, doing Skyline is almost meditative ...

If it weren't so darn agonizing!