Two Seperate Rescues On The Tram Hike Today

[Hikin_Jim]

Withholding information can be a two edged sword. A prudent person might make mistakes that they would not otherwise have made -- had they known better. I think we do well to openly talk about the reality of C2C in particular and hiking in general; it helps the prudent and at least does no harm to those less so endowed.

After I wrote a polite note to the leader of the OCHBC group, he cancelled the trip, possibly averting a situation where people could come to serious harm. That public service was made possible by this forum.

[cynthia23]

Oh, don't get me wrong--I'm not suggesting we cruelly withhold info from newbies! But the point I'm making, which, to my frustration, seems to never get across clearly, is that "information"--that is, printed, written, on-a-message-board information--is not enough when it comes to a hazardous hike like Skyline. I truly feel no one who is not a professional mountaineer should ever attempt Skyline for the first time without a seasoned partner (i.e. not another newbie, but an experienced Skylie.) Hell, I myself saw a PROFESSIONAL MOUNTAINEER (i.e. a guy who had done big peaks in Europe, Pakistan, and Antartica!) almost passed out at Flat Rock! He was sick as a dog. He was not acclimated to the weather and didn't understand how tough the hike would be. Tthe point I keep making is info is not enough, you have to have an experienced partner the first time (or three!). Had those folks on Saturday simply partnered with an experienced Skylie, none of the bad things would have happened (cos they would all be hiking over in Idyllwild!!!) So--rather than focusing on whether we should or shouldn't pass on "information" to newbies, let's instead always encourage Skyline newbies to partner with an old-hand Skylie their first time. I believe we would see a drop in all these rescues.

There is something about Westerners that causes us to put too much faith in printed or written "information" and not enough in the old ways of guidance, apprenticeship, and mentoring, which are how people used to learn things. To my mind, it's all about modesty and safety.

Speaking of modesty, Hikin Jim, you do realize you probably saved those OC people's butts, right? You may have actually saved their lives, and you definitely saved them from a rescue operation. Give yourself a pat on the back for taking the time to write those people and warn them--thank goodness you did. Let's all give HJ a big hand for his kind action. This is the kind of mentoring/guidance I'm talking about, and the wilderness spirit in action. If not for his pre-emptive strike, there would have been three rescues on Saturday ....

[Hikin_Jim]

Aw, shucks, 'twern't nothin'

(My "mother hen" side just couldn't keep silent. I really sensed they weren't aware of what they were up against. When I saw that the hike leader rated himself as "beginner," I felt I really needed to write. I may be neurotic, worrying about other people, but at least I use my "powers" for good.)

[magikwalt]

Well then lets hear from all those people wanting to be the guide for whoever asks if they can go along. How many people in a group is one person going to be responsible for? What happens when you recommend at the picnic tables that they all turn around and go back home. If you called for a 7 hour pace and haven't made it to the shady area after 2 hours then what? "Sorry guys but you're not going to make it. I'm going on and you should go home!"

I think it was just last year that 4 guys went up and 3 guys turned around due to lack of water. The 4th guy (Jason I believe) went on by himself and got to spend the night under the trees. Three out of 4 understood it was time to go home all by themselves. I doubt if a Tram Station Ranger was telling Jason the bad news he would have listened.

Some of these folks plans don't include hiking with the likes of us or anyone they don't know. Not to mention that this would require them to make two trips out here. I'm not sure about the rest of the site here but while I'm capable dealing with someone joining me for a hike, even C2C, it becomes a little more of a thought process once you start adding in more than one. Some of these groups are 10-15 people.

Rather than headline reading "Inexperienced Hiker From Somewhere Else Stranded" it could be "Local Hiker Abandoned Inexperienced Hikers On C2C - What Was He/She Thinking?".

Like most situations in life these two rules still apply:
Help Is Available If You Ask!
Most Advice Isn't Worth a Damn If You Don't Follow It.

In the future I see us gyrating towards a desk at the trailhead where the Harvard Step Test is administered to check their cardio before for allowing them to head up.

Reminds me of seatbelts. First it was a safety option, then it was mandatory and now its the law. Yet, still there are those that CHOOSE not to use them. How do you save them?

[Hikin_Jim]

Yeah, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink;" that's for sure. You kind of have to let people live with their choices.

In terms of skylies leading newbies, I guess you have to talk to people and get a sense of who they are. If you get a bad vibe, don't take 'em up the mountain. And I guess if the group bails, you bail with them rather than going on up alone (although the higher you are, the tougher that decision would be).

In the Sierra Club, they often require that people send "resumes" of their recent hiking experience. If they're listing Mt. Whitney, Cloud's Rest, and the like, they're a "go." If they list, "walked Fluffy to the park and back," they're a "no go." I'm obviously exagerating here, but you catch my drift. If they've got an extensive resume of serious hikes and you have a good feel about who they are, you may want to offer to accompany them.

I've also been on Sierra Club trips where they have a mandatory food/clothing/gear checklist. I've seen leaders turn people away if they havn't brought the requisite gear. In like manner, you could say "I'm happy to show you the route, but you have to bring X liters of water (or what have you) or I just can't in good conscience take you up the mountain.

I'm pretty much thinking out loud here, so hopefully some of this makes sense/is useful.

[Foleymo]

Let me speak for all the "newbies."

You guys are a great source of information. If you clammed up and didn't come forth with all the information you had, there would probably be even more rescues.
Intelligent people seek out such advice and plan their course of action appropriately. Not-so-intelligent people ignore such advice and kind of get what they deserve.
I don't wish anyone ill-will, but it's natural selection. Nature weeds out the ones who aren't smart (or fit).
I've made a goal of completing a C2C. After reading your posts here I now know the amount of work I have to do to prepare for such a hike. I also know how to prepare for the hike and I have a host of folks who I can ask to "show me the route" when I finally am ready (hopefully next springtime).
Please keep the good information coming. It helps the ones it can. Nothing you say can help the few "unintelligent."

By the way, anyone know when would be a good time to do the San G. peak hike from Vivian. I'm sure it will be plenty hot for a while yet, but I am really looking forward to getting up that one. Any thoughts?

Thanks again.

Everyone's favorite newbie,

Mike Foley

[magikwalt]

Thanks Hikin_Jim. Those are some great suggestions.

[cynthia23]

I think y'all are overthinking it. It's really simple: we should tell newbies that their first time on Skyline, they have to go with someone experienced. No going on your own or with a bunch of other newbies. Period, end of story. If they choose not to, of course that's their problem and we have no further responsibility. But the most important piece of "information" we can give anyone is this: the first time, go with someone experienced. Wonderful as this web site is, the route has many subtle dangers that the most comprehensive message board/most high-tech GPS co-ordinates/best map/best book can't possibly cover. One of those subtleties is weather. As SS and MagikWalt and others have discussed at various times, even small variations in temp and humidity can make a huge difference as to whether you will survive a 5am start or not. Yesterday, in the gym, I was talking to Ironman Pavel, who said ruefully that on Saturday he miscalculated and ran out of water at Flat Rock, making for a dreadful last hour. This is one of the fittest guys around! Or, how about the time a year and a half ago I did Skyline in late Spring and discovered that a huge Jeffrey pine had just fallen across the trail, completely obscuring it? I knew the trail and could figure out a route around it; what would a newbie have done? These things can't be covered in a message board. That's why we have the whole profession of wilderness guides--cos there's some stuff no manual can prepare you for. That's why the Army has drill sergeants instead of just telling recruits to read a couple of books or a web page! When it comes to learning something dangerous, personal guidance and hands-on-learnin' are the name of the game ....as for who will guide all these newbies, that's why we have this message board. I myself have taken up a dozen or so and never had any problems with that; I have "unintentionally" guided a dozen or so lost or dehydrated newbies I found on the way (indeed, I have taken to thinking of the extra liter of water I usually carry as "the newbies' water".) We are all good folks like Hikin' Jim who don't want anyone to come to harm. So let's just urge newbies to come with us. Hey, if nothing else, it saves on the taxi ride back!

[Perry]

"Newbie" and "noob" are often derrogatory terms on message boards and in other aspects of life. Maybe we could call them "1st-time hikers." I think if people know what they are getting themselves into, then soloing a first time is not a huge deal, especially for somebody who has a lot of experience.

[cynthia23]

Yeah, "newbie" is not the best term. But "Skyline Virgin" or "Skyline Cherry" seemed maybe a little too, uh, loaded. I think "Skyline first-timer" is serviceable, but kinda klunky. Anybody got any jazzy suggestions?