Skyline Dec 13 -- who's on?

[zippetydude]

Great trip reports, and that 5:13 was a huge increase in speed! Well done! I haven't been out there since October, so it's fun for me to read your accounts. Hope to see some of you up in the snow one of these weekends coming up soon.

z

[tinaballina]

Great time, congrats on that achievement!

[Marknhj]

Ellen - after meeting you in February, where in place of hiking poles you were utilizing a walking frame after your "chillin" adventure, your recovery is unbelievable...my hat is off to you! Now we have to develop a strategy to break 5 hours in 2009, figure we need to get to Flat Rock in 3:30

Steve - now that you've come up twice with us, and can definitely go faster, we'll probably hand you over to Tina next year...

Tina - can you do us a favor and destroy Steve's legs before Flat Rock? I'll ride up the tram and offer encouragement as he comes up from Coffman's

[tinaballina]

LOL, you ready steve????

[bluerail]

Mark -all I was saying, was that if you hadn't spent all that time staring at the clouds and we hadn't taken those two sixty second breaks.......

My biggest concern now is the weather. I've known about this trail for 2 weeks now, and thanks to you guys I've been having alot of fun. By no means do I want to stop right after I've started. But as of this morning, the snow looks like it's half way down the mountain and the only waterproof shoes I have are flip-flops, not to mention all the other gear.

Tina- Thanks for the offer, but I was reading through post and read one of yours that had the phrase "sub 4" . My legs started hurting and I was just sitting here.

Ellen- you are the biggest inspiration...to think what you went through and the shape you were in barely a year ago. Honestly I dont know how you do it..maybe theres somebody in your head that doesn't know you got hurt.

Now, about that snow.....

[FIGHT ON]

Made good time up to the picnic tables, overtaking Gary before halfway by going up the vertical shortcut. After wondering where we'd appeared from, he decided to join us.

We took every short cut I knew, got to 4300' in 2:27 and had a 2-3 minute rest before heading off again.

Lost Steve on the way back to the concrete ramp but then noticed he’d taken a short cut and was walking up through the rocks to the tram station!

Marknhj, I have always suspected that there were shortcuts on Skyline. I have seen several signs of what look like forks along the way which were either already blocked off by something like a long tree limb or rocks or the person(s) that I was hiking with stopped and erected a barrier to make it clear that wasn't the way to go.
I was once overtaken by a trail runner somewhere along the way and as he passed I decided to hang to see how long I could keep up. He soon veered off the trail and started across where there wasn't a clear trail. Once he realized I was still tailing him he turned and announced that I should go back to the main trail. Which I did.
I was wondering a few things about these shortcuts. When you figure your time do you always go the same route? (take the same shortcuts) Or take what ever route will get you the fastest time regardless of which route you go.(making new shortcuts)
I was assuming that people who have timed them selves on this hike or on any hike have all stayed on the main trail so that the times can be compared accurately.
I don't think it's a good idea to take shortcuts on established trails but Skyline is I guess really not a trail. Like a route or path or what ever. So it's interesting to me what you think about it.
Specifically making new paths off the main route and possibly damaging more sensitive areas.
Are these shortcuts secretes or maybe you can share with us where they are.

[AlanK]

A general discussion of shortcuts on Skyline deserves its own thread.

I have been doing Skyline since 2002. That makes me a relative newcomer, but it is also true that the number of people doing the hike has grown tremendously in the time I've been going there.

We have seen quite a few people taking shortcuts, mostly regulars who know the area well. I didn't see that as bad when the total number of hikers on the trial was relatively small. However, the large number of hikers on the trail and the growing number who take shortcuts suggest that the area is in for a lot of damage. I've seen guys cutting switchbacks by ten feet to gain tiny savings. That is really obnoxious.

It does not matter that Skyline is not an official trail. The area needs to be taken care of. That means that the days of shortcuts need to end. Just because someone has been doing the hike for years does not entitle them to special consideration. We should all respect the trail. It's one thing to taks shortcuts over granite in the Sierra. That's not what we're dealing with here.

If you want to compare times with people, do it over a fixed course so that your time means something.

[bluerail]

I'm absolutely new here, but I can assure you that any shortcut Mark or Ellen took, was a well worn path and the only time they may have been off-trail was by accident up in the big trees. And then it was only for a very short distance.

But who are those people dropping water bottles and wrappers above 4000 ft. ?

[Marknhj]

The shortcuts I referred to are across already established routes. Whether they should exist is not is something I'm not particularly qualified to discuss, being new to hiking. When I first did Skyline in May, I was shown some by experienced hikers but the steeper gradients impacted my legs to such degree there was no effective decrease in time taken for the total ascent. Actually, I believe they slowed me down. But, they are definitely faster if you are conditioned adequately. There are two significantly quicker routes that I use; one halfway up to the picnic tables and another at the top of Shady Slope. But they are steep. The others add up cumulatively to result in faster times; some are easier to spot than others. The only area in which I take what could be called unestablished shortcuts across switchbacks are in the rocks above the traverse. That's because I seem to take a different route each time and often can't see the trail. I doubt if it makes any difference in time and wish I could always follow the trail up there.

Speaking for myself, Skyline is the only hike on which I care about time. That's because of the nature of the hike and the defined start and finish lines. Other peoples times are only an indicator of what is possible and something for me to aim towards. To me it is a highly personal challenge. A competition with only one participant. Me. I really don't care about, or want to beat, any other hikers times. But I celebrate and have admiration for the fast guys because I can now directly relate to the effort involved and the athleticism/fitness that it takes. And, I respect anyone and everyone who completes the route, no matter how long it takes them.

If getting from A-B as fast and directly as possible, without tramping across unbroken areas, upsets anyone else who is also timing themselves, that's not something that causes me much concern. Although new to hiking here, I come from a highly competitive background where there is a direct correlation between personal commitment and results. Skyline, to me, is simply an extension of that in a different environment; it's neither a race nor a competitive time-trail. It's a personal challenge with measurable results.

[KathyW]

There is no established trail but the routes up are well worn and easy to follow - it sure feel like being on a trail. There are areas where there's more than one path to follow and I think the steeper path is usually referred to as the shortcut, but maybe the longer route is the shortcut - I'm not sure. In any case, I think most people stay on the worn paths.

I think in terms of elevation gain most of the time more than in miles. So, no matter what path I follow it's still pretty close to the same elevation gain to get up the hill.

I think most people time themselves because they have personal goals they are working on and as they get faster and stronger they report their progress because they are proud of themselves. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments.

In my opinion, discussions on speed, trail distance, food/supplements eaten, and etc. can be productive and provide helpful information, as long as it's a discussion and not just someone posting to belittle or attack others. We all have different points of view we want to express, but we need to respect each other and try not to be overly judgmental when we express our opinion. Some of these topics might work better under the chat section and not on the same thread that someone posts a trip report - they might seem more objective that way.