group in need of a leader..

[lizmc]

My sister, two friends & I are planning to do C2C this Fall. All are in shape - will be in better shape by October - and experienced hikers. None of us has hiked skyline before. How do we go about finding someone familiar with skyline, to join/lead us? I assume we offer payment (is that insulting?…if not, how much does one offer?)

[Hikin_Jim]

I'll take you for "only" $1,000,000.

Seriously, hang out here on the forum a bit, participate in the discussions, learn who's who -- and who you'd be compatible with. Then ask. It may be customary to buy the person a beer (or two), but you shouldn't have to pay money to just one of us amateurs here on the forum. There is however a professional, Scott, who does take people around the Palm Springs Area for a living. His website: http://www.palmspringshiking.com/ Note: I haven't ever hiked with Scott, so I can't comment on his style, but everybody I've talked to says good things about him. I've chatted with him in person on a number of occasions and think he's a good guy on a purely personal level; I just haven't hiked with him or engaged his professional services.

HJ

[zippetydude]

Hi lizmc. HJ is right, you will most likely end up talking with several people on this board who know the trail very well and would enjoy the company of first timers. It makes the trail seem new again. BTW this is one of the friendliest boards I have come across, so you really can't lose. You can go with one of the regulars, or you can always join this friendly group:

http://www.meetup.com/Hiking-Coachella-Valley/

Many of them participate in these discussions on trail conditions, etc. and all of them that I've gone with have been fun. Are you local or coming in from out of state? You sound like you're on top of your conditioning...have you been able to do much uphill work? I had run several marathons, which are pretty flat, before I did C2C and I found that the steep, continuous uphill was a different sort of challenge than I had encountered previously. Nothing insurmountable, but a different flavor of challenge nonetheless. October is a great month to go, you'll probably see quite a few people on the trail when you go.

z

[lizmc]

Thanks HJ & z! I will definitely hang out here on the forum, you all do seem quite knowledgable and welcoming. I moved to SoCal from the east coast two years ago. My three co-hikers are still stuck on that coast. I'm sending them a link to this website and suggesting they hang out in this forum too.
I have joined some local meet up hiking groups. In fact, it was one of my first meet ups - tram to peak - where I learned about C2C. I didn't know about the Coachella-Valley group, so I will check them out. As for preparing - I'm spending a lot of time on the stair master. I welcome additional prep tips.
Thanks again for being so welcoming!

[Hikin_Jim]

Not that by any means my methods are "authoritative" or something, but here's my blog post on my trip up the Skyline Trail and how I prepared for it:
A Journey Up the Skyline Trail

Skyline is that portion of C2C that goes from the desert floor to basically the tram station.

HJ

[guest]

Hi Lizmc,
Glad to see your doing your homework, and have found this board, (you've probably noticed some recent threads on preparing for this climb, including learning as much as possible).
I'm the Scott that Hikin Jim was kind enough to mention here.
The hiking club Zip mentioned is a great resource for many local hikes & climbs, doing many of the tougher trails at times.

Treating this like a marathon, or other tough challenge can make you & your friends 1st experience so much more enjoyable, so may want to return for a C2C attempt, (having a bar & restaurant 1/2 way makes it easy to bail if needed!
Going with experienced folks can make a big difference with pacing, equipment, hydration & nutrition, and the profile & conditions of the trail / climb.
(Feel free to pm here, or through the website HJ including).

Happy trails,

ss

[Ed]

Lizmc,

You are receiving the usual excellent advice, it is simply a matter of emphasis. HJ's writeup on the web is extremely accurate and complete, as is Perry's, and the Mt. San Jacinto Hiking Club has very good boiler-plate plus last minute comments on conditions. My comments are:

On a weekend in late October, there are plenty of people on the trail. The worst you can do without someone who knows the trail is lose some time and energy stumbling around in the dark, and I say that as someone who has done that a lot. Zip recently posted a simple rule around here for following the trail in the dark without losing it. Scouting the lower part of the trail in daylight helps.

Do the Skyline before trying the C2C. The C2C requires a much earlier start, and the chances are good you are going to burn out at the tram anyway. For the Skyline on a typical day in late October, I think starting 1-1/2 hours before sunrise is fine, though other people may differ. That gives you only about an hour of hiking in the dark. Hiking in the dark slows you down and causes worry about the route.

There is no substitute for being able to do the elevation gain. It's not a bad idea to hike with someone who knows the trail, but they can't carry you up it. You can calibrate the hike very roughly with other hikes by Naismith's Rule: one hour for every three miles and one hour for every 2,000' of elevation gain. This gives the Skyline a rating of about 8 hours, depending on whose estimate of the distance you are using. If you cannot comfortably do a hike with the same or more Naismith's Rule time, you are probably going to have an ordeal, not a hike.

Lastly, consider doing the hike yourself before bringing along people from another area who are not accustomed to the dry heat, elevation gains, and altitude we have here. Don't worry about hiking the trail alone on a late October weekend, you are going to have plenty of company. There can be so much human chatter you are sorry you didn't bring earplugs.

[guest]

Hi,
Sure, there should be plenty of folks hiking Skyline in Oct on weekend. But, as I've seen so many times, many just follow each other on many of the alternate routes, (shady slope, birthing rock, 4k, deer trail etc.) which are generally steeper, and can wear you out by Flat Rock. In fact few even know the old :main" trail of just 10 years ago. An example is yet another "new route" at the top of the orange hill, (approx. 4,400 ft.) that runs along the top of the ridge, saving nothing, but damaging that west facing slope, saving almost no time or effort. That, after many of us continue to cover up spanky, just before it, which has damaged that slope, (of which I witnessed a hike leader from the mentioned club taking brand new folks up).
Perry, Cynthia & Doreen are some of the only ones I know who still use most of the main (original) trail.

Not sure about the Naismith rule, but I wouldn't count on doing either 3 miles or 2k gain an hour, (that's the way I interpret what Ed posted), unless your super fit & can do Skyline in about 4 hrs., (although it somehow come out to 8 hrs. on that formula?). Even if fit, if one doesn't eat & drink properly or goes out too hard, it can make a big difference.

ss

[Ed]

I'm not in disagreement with Guest's comments about the route. But as his comments indicate, it's not even clear any more to most people exactly what the true route is everywhere, or that all experienced people take exactly the same route. Certainly on a late October weekend you can see different groups temporarily diverging, but you are not going to be lost if you have common sense. The point I was trying to make is that while it is nice to have someone who knows the trail, it is not the most important thing. Being able to do the elevation gain is the most important thing. I would warn against doing it for the first time on a weekday, when you often see nobody else.

For Naismith's Rule, you add an hour for every 3 miles to an hour for every 2,000' of elevation gain, hence 8 hours for Skyline if you assume 12 miles and 8,000'. The rule was formulated in 1892 for hiking in the Scottish Highlands. I don't think it's that bad for Skyline. While many people on this discussion board are far faster, my impression from their website is that the Mt. San Jacinto Hiking Club likes to figure on about 7.5 hours to Grubbs Notch. Actually, I was suggesting it more as a way of calibrating yourself by comparing hikes you've done to Skyline, that as a way of estimating time. It's a crude way of comparing hikes with different combinations of distance and elevation gain, and I don't know of any simple way of doing it that's better.

[guest]

Good points Ed, and thanks for the clarification, (although I'm still a tad confused, but I failed math!), on the Scottish rule, it does help for folks to be able to have a reference to compare hikes to better understand what their attempting. Hopefully lots of folks continue to get good info from boards like these, to make this climb a fun & successful one.

It's heating up again, lets hope everyone stays in a cool forest somewhere, not beginning a hike in the desert in July!

FYI, tram is open at 8am every Friday until shutdown, which I believe is the 2nd week in Sept.

ss