Ascent Records

[ultrademus]

See comments below

[guest]

Hi,
No disrespect, but it's all people talking, unless there are people verifying your start & finish times.
Plus, you have no way of knowing if your where on the "main trail" that some others have done PR's on several years back, since many sections are almost obscure by now.
Did you head south at 3,800 ft. or go off to the right, did you go north or south around "Tit Rock" at close to 4k?
Did you head all the way into the hill (west) on Museum trail, where it actually losses a bit of elevation, or take the cut to the right? Shady Slope or exposed route at 3k?
You may not know if you don't know the old & "new" trail, and these changes can add several minutes, or more.

If it's just a race to the top, then I guess it doesn't matter.

There's been discussion on this board several times about cautioning people to broadcast times & post or mention who's the fastest on the web. You may consider reading these. Yes people are going to do it, and folks will always want to challenge & compare.

A lot of us have worked to keep this climb from becoming another Whitney. We've already been experiencing way to many rescues every year, and agencies have discussed taking some type of action, possibly even restriction. Sure, it's public knowledge, but many of us appreciate when people do their own thing on the trail, keep your stop watch handy if you must, but not open up some major challenge / contest and see people using (& many abusing) the trail for bragging rights. Someone has already attempted a loosely organized race, much to the ire of the State Park & BLM.

I'm sure you mean no disrespect, and are new to the trail & the east side of San Jacinto, and a great athlete to boot. But I hope I've given you a little food for thought, it's an amazing mountain, a hell of a trail, but, like any mountain or wilderness area, deserves our respect & care.

peace,

ss

[cynthia23]

Hi Ultrademus, I think I saw you flash by me on the trail on Saturday as I crawled up to 5k ... I commend your focus and athleticism.

But not this idea. The words "fragile wilderness area severely stressed by drought" and 'ultrarunner competition' don't belong together in the same sentence. Also, practically speaking, the many confusing shortcuts, some of which now APPEAR to be the 'main trail", make an actual competition impossible. This isn't mountaineering, so an ascent record isn't possible; the trail isn't official, maintained, or fixed, so a trail-running race is also not possible.

Instead, do what the regular Skyliners do: follow the original trail as much as possible (generally, it has more switchbacks and tends to bear to the left. The shortcuts usually go straight up) and work for a private, not-to-be discussed PR. We don't post times. (Although mine would only be good for a long hard laugh ) Discussing past so-called 'records' and posting times only encourages 'wannabes' to create further shortcuts. We are trying to protect the trail from take-over and closure. Please read through some of the many posts on this subject so you can understand our point of view. Most of the trail receives only a few inches of rain a year, if that. The vegetation that is being destroyed may have taken fifty years or more to grow into a three foot shrub. Most of it won't grow back. The rodents, bighorn and deer rely on these food sources. Many have starved this year. Quite frankly, if Skyline were within the boundaries of a state or national park, rangers would have closed it to protect it from further destruction. At time, lately, I think this may be the only solution.

Wishing you the best, and with great respect for your obvious hard work to attain your athletic goals.

[ultrademus]

Cynthia23 and SS, I agree with both of you after reading some more about the trail and sitting back for the last few days and actually thinking about the validity for the record there. Firstly, SS is dead on with the fact that its not really 'measurable' because so many variations of the trail exist and your right Cynthia23 many of the switchback cuts are so commonly used that the main trail now is a bit different probably than it was in 1990's or earlier...My main ideology with posting a time and a record was simply as something 'fun' to compare between and among other runners and speed goats, its a good motivation tool for training. But I see your point as well, as it could potentially encourage more switchback cutting, erosion and ultimately damage to the sensitive habitat.

Perhaps if the route does become (and is currently becoming) more people among endurance athletes/ runners, some sort of trail maintenance agreement can be worked out with the agency that manages the land (the trail could definitely use a bit of maintenance).

Hope to see you guys out there again soon! And for the purpose of not 'provoking' others, I'm deleting most of the first post here.
-ultrademus

[Perry]

With a topic like this, there's going to be differences in opinions even among friends and hiking partners.

I think Brett's record cuts off more time than can be accounted for by shortcuts and changes to the "main trail," if there is one any more. Meaning if Brett had run the trail that existed in 2002, he would have still beat my time. I don't know much about the trail in the 90's, just heard it was more of a route and less established.

Trail maintenance these days is unorganized. It's just whatever by whoever. But if the State Park and BLM designated a main path as the official path (using good trail design methods to minimize erosion), I bet many of us would help maintain that path decided by them.

[Perry]

Another aspect of good trail design, often overlooked (think: above High Creek on San Gorgonio) is to avoid too many switchbacks that are too gradual, so it's not overly tempting for many hikers to cut them.

[bluerail]

Nice Perry....very well put.

Brett, I hope people here find ans read your post on. Fkt

[guest]

Hi ultrademus,

I really appreciate your reply and willingness to consider all aspects of this subject, it's impressive to see people open to different views & concerns, especially when it concerns nature and a valuable resource, (as Cynthia so nicely stated).
Many of us on here, (including some of faster ones like Bluerail, Fern & I), accept some responsibility for the current condition of the trail.
Now, with help from this board, (thanks Perry), we are raising awareness and generating cooperation to "save what we can" of the old route, and deal with the new sections that probably are here to stay.

There's always going to be those who use the mt. (& wilderness) for what it can give them, just like there are those that kill one species, (wolves), because they feel another is more important, (money).

I doubt will ever get the "agencies" involved regarding maintenance, w/ budget constraints & all, (plus getting lost is not a major cause of rescue), plus many of us don't think having govmt. oversight would be a good idea, (surprise!).

Once again, thanks for your understanding, hope to see you on the trail again, (you passed me about 5k, Rescue Box 2) Sat.
BTW, I think powerhiking after Flatrock, as you did, makes more sense w/ the gradient there, in my former 50k trail running days, that's what I would have done, besides, it's pretty tough to "run" it any faster than a good climber can hike it, (what do you think Perry?).

Happy Trails,
ss

[KathyW]

Another aspect of good trail design, often overlooked (think: above High Creek on San Gorgonio) is to avoid too many switchbacks that are too gradual, so it's not overly tempting for many hikers to cut them.

Very good point - Trail maintenance is great when it encourages people to stay on the trail. When a trail is engineered with too many gradual switchbacks and a lot of big stair steps it only encourages humans to cut paths around those sections.

I just cringe when I'm out in the Sierra and I see trail crews adding more stairs to the trail - the John Muir Trail is a good example of on overly engineered mess that is much more stock friendly than people friendly.

I'm not saying the Skyline Trail doesn't need maintenance, but not all trail maintenance is good maintenance.

[bdog]

I didn't know if it was better to post on the FKT site or here. Given Bluerail's comment here is the link to my post on the other site.

http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/i ... 49&page=1#

All my life I have followed trails and generally never cut switchbacks or followed side routes. My two 'racing' ascents of skyline are really the only two instances I can recall where I didn't always follow the main trail in a place where I knew the route. During those runs my thinking boiled down to "Man, I really want to get to the tram in under 2:30". I wasn't thinking of the broader implications of what I was doing. Before now I have never really thought about this issue. Over the past day I've been thinking about land use issues and what our society values--both what it states and what is evident from actions and policies. In summary, these are complicated issues and I just felt like I was going down an ever deeper rabbit hole thinking about it. In the end though, there just isn't a compelling case to shortcut the trail for the sake of an FKT. My post on Peter's site is the best I could come up with as a "solution" going forward.